How long till its all uniform?
Original Poster: bamboo
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 13-08-2007, 13:37
Orginal Post: bamboo: So in 92-93 when BJJ became well known in martial arts circles of north america it was the ground game. Sure judo and a bunch of jjj styles did it but lets be honest, only bjj payed as much attention to the ground as bjj. We move ahead to 2007 and its everywhere. BJJ is in all the cities and subgrappling has exploded as well. Now JJJ stylists are practicing on the ground much more than ever before and some are even offering classes and streams where all they do are ground work.
My school is a great point in case. Before mma they were solely a variant of standup self defense japanese styled jiujitsu with canadian flavour mixed with karate. After mma exploded they took a serious look at what they were doing and while they still offer the more traditional kata based karate and self defense jiujitsu, they also have seperate classes, infact, and entirely seperate "culture" devoted solely to kickboxing and groundwork. I know I'll never attend the jj or the karate side of the dojo, and many others are in that boat with me. We do kickboxing and subgrappling- ie- japanese jiujitsu traditional groundwork a la judo with alot of wrestling. The grappling coach devotes all his time to ground work, while hes not a bjj man he is damned good at what he does.
We do the triangle choke, omaplata (by another name), keylocks, straight armbars, leg locks, kneebars, ankle locks etc etc. We work on guard passes and sweeps, we work from the bottom constantly and are are always evolving. Now, given that Bjj is definately the major reason this is being done (that and shooto), my question is- How long will the BJJ camp be able to claim exclusive rights to being THE GROUND GAME of CHOICE?
How long till it all pretty much looks the same?
-bamboo
Post: Gazelle:
[quote=bamboo;50577 So in 92-93 when BJJ became well known in martial arts circles of north america it was the ground game. Sure judo and a bunch of jjj styles did it but lets be honest, only bjj payed as much attention to the ground as bjj. We move ahead to 2007 and its everywhere. BJJ is in all the cities and subgrappling has exploded as well. Now JJJ stylists are practicing on the ground much more than ever before and some are even offering classes and streams where all they do are ground work.
My school is a great point in case. Before mma they were solely a variant of standup self defense japanese styled jiujitsu with canadian flavour mixed with karate. After mma exploded they took a serious look at what they were doing and while they still offer the more traditional kata based karate and self defense jiujitsu, they also have seperate classes, infact, and entirely seperate "culture" devoted solely to kickboxing and groundwork. I know I'll never attend the jj or the karate side of the dojo, and many others are in that boat with me. We do kickboxing and subgrappling- ie- japanese jiujitsu traditional groundwork a la judo with alot of wrestling. The grappling coach devotes all his time to ground work, while hes not a bjj man he is damned good at what he does.
We do the triangle choke, omaplata (by another name), keylocks, straight armbars, leg locks, kneebars, ankle locks etc etc. We work on guard passes and sweeps, we work from the bottom constantly and are are always evolving. Now, given that Bjj is definately the major reason this is being done (that and shooto), my question is- How long will the BJJ camp be able to claim exclusive rights to being THE GROUND GAME of CHOICE?
How long till it all pretty much looks the same?
-bamboo[/quote
That's the problem...most, i guess wants to make what they teach 'more commercial', i.e. to bring in the punters. If you add whatever natural evolution of any martial arts into it...ok, i guess, what i'm trying to say is, if most prefer a certain way of things, than that's what you'll see popping up on the signs of the gyms/dojos, and that's what you'll see creeping more beneath the signs too.>
Post: Gazelle:
By the by, why don'ot you want to get involved with 'the other part of the dojo'?>
Post: zefff:
To be honest I think even when we are all dead, Gracie Jiu Jitsu will still remain as long as it is viable.
There is only one human body so it will always look the same, it is what it is, but I think it might take a big shift in law and culture in society...Mind you the art is successful in Brazil. I wonder what gun and knife crime statistics are like there? Is and was self defence the major motivator for learning and developing Gracie Jiu Jitsu?
I think in the future as the sport of BJJ develops, we will maybe see a renaissance of Judo and maybe near extinct wrestling arts. I dont really care about how and when it all looks the same, Im more worried about future thugs with Jits!>
Post: bamboo:
Quote: By the by, why don'ot you want to get involved with 'the other part of the dojo'?
I'm simply not interseted in self defense jiujitsu and katakarate. Pressure points and such are exactly what I think is wrong with most arts.
Zefff- I agree totally, GJJ will be around , BJJ will be around for a long long time. I forgot my point, i think it was to start conversation.
-bamboo>
Post: Gazelle:
[quote=bamboo;50603 I'm simply not interseted in self defense jiujitsu and katakarate. Pressure points and such are exactly what I think is wrong with most arts.
Zefff- I agree totally, GJJ will be around , BJJ will be around for a long long time. I forgot my point, i think it was to start conversation.
-bamboo[/quote
lol. it worked:)>
Post: zefff:
Actually Bamboo,
I think it will really hot up when you get teams competing who dont claim to practice BJJ but are doing all the right moves with the gi.>
Post: NeverMan:
1) I think you are already seeing plenty of competitors who don't use BJJ at all. They are showing up more and more in events. The problem is that most of the events (aka competitions) are centered around BJJ style rules, therefore, inherently helping the BJJist.
2) I can't see anyone using BJJ as a self defense art, at least not by itself. As far as a street combat oriented art, it looks totally worthless to me as taught. That's not to say you can't take concepts, tweak them a little, and use them differently. Most BJJ schools are all into competition, not self defense.
3) What things do you see in BJJ that you don't see in Judo or JJJ? Answer: Not much if anything at all.>
Post: zefff:
1) But it is a BJJ competition so what do you expect? Judo rules are set up to help the Judoka so what? You enter knowing the rules and you play by them. I think this cross-competition is a great thing for the sport and for the competitors. Its not a problem, its just a set of rules to play by. Its not a fight or anything.
2) From what I've read though, there is a difference between old school Gracie Jiu Jitsu and all other BJJ such as Brazil Top Team etc. From what I understand GJJ is or used to be less sport focused than a lot of other schools. I mean, BTT for example was set up only as a MMA/BJJ team - That was its goal; but GJJ was developed as a martial art. If you check that vintage Gracie vid I posted recently, you can clearly see how Helio was promoting the art back in the day long before MMA was a common term.
Also, havent BJJ instructors always told serious students to take boxing or MT as well? (on the hush :lol: )
3) I am a noob but I roll with Judoka and traditional Jiu Jitsu players all the time at my school and although the technique you see looks the same, it feels different. Even simple things feel different - not to say that one is better than the other. It seems to be an individual thing where it comes down to where youve put the time in and how many repetitions youve done. We all know armbars: An armbar performed by a guy who has practiced 5000 times will feel different to the armbar performed by a guy who has practiced 500,000 armbars and analysed each one.
peace>
Post: bamboo:
Quote: An armbar performed by a guy who has practiced 5000 times will feel different to the armbar performed by a guy who has practiced 500,000 armbars and analysed each one.
This is it for me. I've known armbars for years but they were only ever seen as a finishing technique. I worked on the throw, everything about the throw and thought the armbar was just the quick add on that happenned after the throw. When came time to actually roll and perform the armbar, I was at a huge loss. It was sloppy and only worked on nervous noobs. When I rolled with a really good subgrappler and later a bjj man, the difference was incredible.
They couldn't throw at all but man those subs were fantastic, a true artists.
Everyone may know armbars, but not everyone really knows them. The same can be said for most aspects of martial arts.
-bamboo>
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