My New Instructor
Original Poster: gore_child
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 22-09-2006, 02:17
Orginal Post: gore_child: So I finally started my Jiu-Jitsu training Monday. I loved it. But I remember reading about in the belt ranking thread that the "Red Belt" is the highest? Is that like seriously true? Cuz I when I walked in and saw my Sensai....first thing I noticed was the "Red Belt"...I was like HOLY SHIT lol...But anyways...I LOVE Learning Jiu-Jitsu and plan on taking it probably for the rest of my life! But if someone could just reaffirm the answer to that question...I'd be greatful
Post: BLACK PANTA:
are you training in BJJ? and what is the name of your instructor? TMK a red belt is like 10th degree black, and the only one I know of that is alive who has that is Helio really.>
Post: gore_child:
Ben Berfswerger...He's British, but spent most of his life in Japan. And he said it's not really BJJ...but we're basically learning Jiu-Jitsu as if there were two attackers, where to take one down and cause enough damage to keep him from attacking you anytime soon, and as quickly as possible so you can move onto the next attacker. He trains special ops and special forces all over the world supposedly.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
do you have a website to show us?>
Post: setsu nin to:
gore_child
In some martial arts red belt is student rank, like in TKD, in some arts its used for competitions, like in Shotokan where competitors have blue and red belt. In some arts like Judo or BJJ red belt have only highest ranks. Also there are some traditional schools in Japan that dont care much about color of belt.>
Post: Sparky-bjj:
Quote: are you training in BJJ? and what is the name of your instructor? TMK a red belt is like 10th degree black, and the only one I know of that is alive who has that is Helio really.
There are 3 living red belts in bjj out there namely: Gastao Gracie jr., Helio Gracie and Oswaldo Gracie.>
Post: bamboo:
Quote: He trains special ops and special forces all over the world supposedly.
Seriously, ask him for examples then follow up.
This is a HUGE warning sign, "soke" red belt + spec ops = bad budo in many , many cases. More bad than good.
-bamboo>
Post: gore_child:
he doesn't have a website...but next time I ask him, I'll ask him about if it's like a student rank or what not>
Post: gore_child:
and true @ Setsu, i was just wondering cuz i read in the belt ranking thread that "red" is like the highest. If I would've never read that, I would've just assumed the ranking is like it is in TKD, which is how it possibly may be where he's from, I'm not sure...I'll be sure to ask him next we meet though>
Post: bamboo:
An aside on the redbelt:
I can't remember ever meeting a legitimate holder of 8th dan or above that wore a red belt. Every legitimate shihan I have met wears black, the head of our org is 8th dan and wears white.
Now I have met several red and white and just red belt holders all in the same place at once. So many sokes it was a joke, and not one real one.
I mention this because you mentioned your instructor spent a considerable amount of time in japan, never heard of a red belt wearing jujutsuka with legitimate japanese lineage.
Lineage may not mean much now days, but if your claiming it, it should at least be real.
BTW- What ryu are you practicing? Whats the instructors name?
-bamboo>
Post: setsu nin to:
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark>
Post: gore_child:
turns out he's only a black belt (Ben Bergwerf)...guess he couldn't find his black belt or something lol>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=gore_child turns out he's only a black belt (Ben Bergwerf)...guess he couldn't find his black belt or something lol[/quote
A BB in BJJ or JJJ?>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
here is a list of belt rankings from www.bjj.org. Mind you this site is not an official gracie site. Your instructor's name is not there.>
Post: gore_child:
Dude is 68 years old...and says he's a 9th degree....pretty believable...i dunno...but maybe he's JJJ? i'll ask...i don't really care...i also heard that red belts could also be for instructors...*shrugs* i don't really care cuz i'm learning a lot...so as long as he keeps teaching me what i don't know...who am i to really say anything to him...plus when we sparred lol....it was an ugly site...although i know how many ceiling tiles there are now :lol:>
Post: nbotary:
Gore_child - just remember - what he says he is and what he actually is are two different things. I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying your classes with him, but I would just keep that little seed of doubt in the back of my head until he proves otherwise. He should have an official rank that was sent to him from Japan. Even my first instructor - who was a BB in Japanese Ju Jitsu - had to wait almost two months to receive his actual certificate from Japan after he had passed his BB test. Any teacher or instructor worth a shit will have no problem showing you the certificates they've acheived. In fact most of them frame them up and put them at the front by the door when you walk in to their school.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
Just a word of experience....mcdojo's show you alot of cool stuff....stuff you didn't know. However in time they show their real art and............. it's not pretty. I hope such is not the case with your instructor. Be careful buddy, I'd hate to see your burnt like soo many of us here.>
Post: zefff:
That is a great point Panta and you are so right! I remember my first kwoon where we werent shown anything besides basics for the first 6 months and more and the amount of people who left because they couldnt handle it you would not believe.
IMHO McDojo's might show a vast array of astonishing revelations to the noobie but a real school forces you to realise the worth of basics above all else to the detriment of your boredom threshold.
FANCY TECHNIQUES ARE BULLSHIT!>
Post: gore_child:
turns out...8th Dan in Judo, 9th in Japanese Ju-Jitsu, and a 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do...maybe i should just take a picture of his belt...he has this huge yellow block and then 4 yellow stripes above it>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=gore_child turns out...8th Dan in Judo, 9th in Japanese Ju-Jitsu, and a 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do...maybe i should just take a picture of his belt...he has this huge yellow block and then 4 yellow stripes above it[/quote
How old is he? Does he have proof of all these ranks?>
Post: gore_child:
yeah he does...and he's 68>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
not to say that you're instructor is lying or anything, but when ever i encounter someone with all these ranks in different arts, then I start to wonder how legit the ranks are. Then I start to wonder how is he able to concentrate and do so well in so many different arts. There are very good Senseis in thier 50's who only hold at the most a 4th dan.
Out of curiousity, what ryu-ha is your instructor in Jap JJ.?>
Post: gore_child:
i'll ask him...he's been doin martial arts since he was 4>
Post: gore_child:
i'll ask him...he's been doin martial arts since he was 4...and he fought Helio Gracie i believe...he fought one of the Gracies...he lost...but he fought one...i'll ask him which one for sure, i wasn't really paying attention lol>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
He fought one of the gracies? Helio even....see when people say stuff like that, i have a hard time believing them. Mainly, they know that there is no way to prove or DIS PROVE what they say. I met a teacher who says that he sparred with Bruce Lee.
Another thing is if he finds that he needs to justify himself or legitimize himself by saying he fought a Gracie, then I personally would pay him no mind unless he actually proves to me now that what ever he says is the truth.
I've been burnt once, and intend not to be burnt again.>
Post: gore_child:
true...i don't see the reason he would have to lie...*shrugs*...but i understand you 100%>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=gore_child true...i don't see the reason he would have to lie...*shrugs*...but i understand you 100%[/quote
you'd be amazed, most of these martial artists these days are pathological liars. They would lie at the stupidest things. No friggin joke.>
Post: bamboo:
.......or gorechild has found a good teacher
A 68 year old man could have reached several high ranks if he started in his 20s or earlier.
Quote: 8th Dan in Judo, 9th in Japanese Ju-Jitsu, and a 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do...
Dan ranks in three arts is not odd, judo and jujutsu can be similar enough to work together. 8th dan in judo is easy enough to verify, the jujutsu 9th dan rank after 30-40 years of practice is also not unbelievable since its simply a rank, and frankly after 5th dan in most arts, its about what you did for the art and politics rather than what you can do.
Frankly, if your getting good instruction keep it up INMHO. If hes part of the 'World family Sokeship" group, then run.
Judo an jujutsu rank are easy to verify and can be done subtely without him knowing. This is important, a legitimate 68 year old traditional teacher could take great offence to a new student questioning his credentials to his face, I know if I confronted Saotome sensei and demanded proof of rank he recieved from O sensei, i'd be out on my ass pretty fast. If your teacher was in his 40s and claiming then its a different story, but I would suggest doing this very "covertly" in case you have a real gem.
Best of luck,
bamboo>
Post: gore_child:
^^^exactly...i didn't want to offend him at all...thats why i even nervous to ask...i felt really bad when he was like...do you think i just bought my red belt...i was like oh shit...he's gonna gouge out my eyes^^^...he's doin martial arts since he was 4 or 5 year's old...so for 60 something years>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
bamboo, if it is soo easy to verify/authenticate, please enlighten us as to how it can be done. ;)>
Post: bamboo:
Panta-
To be awarded rank you have to have recieved it from someone, that someone must have recieved it from his teacher and so on. The vast majority of legitimate martial arts styles have governing bodies and organizations that maintain standards, this is true from BJJ to Aikido to judo to boxing and wrestling and so on.
Find what organization verified the rank of an individual and simply email, write or call. My rank can be verified through aikikai hombu dojo in japan. If you get a legitimate Bjj rank, check the governing body.
Judo has a HUGE set of organizations and receive these types of calls all the time, its a matter of contacting someone.
Look suspicious? Does your "gut feeling" tell you something is off? It probably is. Lets remember though, some of the best go independant but they should never be afraid or offended to say why and from whom they recieved their original rank....then back to step one.
In the case of gore child, all he has to do is know the name of the style his teacher is claiming rank in...say judo, ask him what organization he belongs to or used to belong to and simply place a call.
If its rank thats self awarded or given by a group such as the world family sokeship then run...run fast and don't look back.
THe last step, ask around! THe martial arts world is a small one, Frank dux has an organization but is a known fraud, just like Ashida kimand several others. The juko kai is known organization but frauds, thier rank is as accepted as the rank awarded by olaf simon of temple kungfu...you know, pure crap.
Thats where people and sites like FA come in, years of experience spanning the world and many arts, someone here can atleast help people get on the right track.
BAM!- now your enlightened.
-bamboo>
Post: gore_child:
he has some organization patch on his Gi, i'll check it out next time and post it...he actually has like 2 or 3 on there...i'll pay close attention next monday and post them in here>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=gore_child he has some organization patch on his Gi, i'll check it out next time and post it...he actually has like 2 or 3 on there...i'll pay close attention next monday and post them in here[/quote
i can see you hanging off the roof of the dojo, with a telescope, spying on his gi....lol...like a ninja MAN.....>
Post: gore_child:
i actually plan to just go super saiyan and move so fast that he can't see me lol>
Post: samurai6string:
hey, I know this thread is old, but I thought i would pick it back up if you care to look. I study JJJ from a very reputable Sensei. He was awarded 6th dan in 1999, and finally retired his VERY worn black belt (35 years worth) and now wears a red and white belt. Prof. Wally Jay founded small circle and wears a completely red belt.>
Post: Bushi:
[quote=gore_child Dude is 68 years old...and says he's a 9th degree....pretty believable...i dunno...but maybe he's JJJ? i'll ask...i don't really care...i also heard that red belts could also be for instructors...*shrugs* i don't really care cuz i'm learning a lot...so as long as he keeps teaching me what i don't know...who am i to really say anything to him...plus when we sparred lol....it was an ugly site...although i know how many ceiling tiles there are now :lol:[/quote
Keep this attitude.>
Post: PerturbedDude:
It is somewhat strange to read all this stuff about myself, and see the many details that Gore_Child (Citadel Cadet?) "remembers", but not quite correctly so. Yes, 68 years old. Not at age 4, but I started at age 13.
(Yes, attended - not fought - Rickson Gracie during a seminar in Chicago. Could not strangle him out. Tough cookie!)
The World [Head of Sokeship Council (if that is what is referred to) does indeed have large number of wannabees on it with 10 degree ranks etc. But there are also some good guys there. (e.g Jackie Chan, Ernie Cates, Chuck Norris etc) So many, uniformed, - but possibly well meant - judgemental comments!
My Kudan (9th) is in USJA Jujitsu, Rokudan (6th) in USJA Judo. TKD yondan from Dr Youstra in '95, but no longer flexible enough to teach that. Former Welsh National champion. 10 year chairman USJA Jujitsu division and chair of the Rank Board, still onthe rank board.Too damn old to do Judo, but my Jujitsu teaching - from 54 years of experience - is still acceptable to most.
Presently teaching Combat Judo at The Citadel. Was my original MOS in Army in 1975.
Do have a web site, http://home.comcast.net/~bergwerf9/ but just the basics. Good picture though!
Wish Gore_Child would simply have talked with me. I am quite approachable.
Now off to Europe fro two weeks. Back in Oct06.
Ben Bergwerf - google me!>
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