Please tell me what you think.
Original Poster: NeverMan
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 04-08-2007, 16:19
Orginal Post: NeverMan: OK, so I recently moved from DC to Newark, DE for school. I was attending a Danzan-Ryu school in DC who did Randori on a regular basis. I really liked the instructor and the students. I paid $65 a month for 3 classes/wk on a non-contract basis.
Now, I realize that I'm not going to find anything nearly that good in Newark, DE, money and contract wise but:
I went to a BJJ class last night (since there are no real JJJ dojos in site, as I would prefer to do that but BJJ is better than nothing). The dojo is run by an Allen Sachetti. Here is the website: Sachetti's Martial Arts
It looks as though, from local competitions, that he has good students (they win often in comparison to other local schools) and therefore must have good instruction. He trained under Rickson Gracie and his listed as such under this website: Rickson Gracie - The Martial Arts Encyclopedia
although I believe he is now a brown belt, via the "instructor" page on his website.
He also offers Filipino Dumpag and MT.
OK, here's the rub:
For BJJ or FD or MT, by themselves (3-4 classes/wk) it's $145/month. For everything (almost unlimited classes) it's $185/month. I say unlimited because he has 2 different BJJ teams and they go on different days of the week (1: MWF, 2:TuThF). ALSO, he wants a 12 month obligation (12 month contract).
I'm not use to paying that kind of money and I certainly don't like obligations. I'm married, that's enough obligation for me.
Please, let me know what you think.
ALSO, here are some other places I am planning on checking out. If you have something to say about these places that would be great, thanks:
Tai Kai - Brazilin Jui-Jitsu - News
Wilmington Jiu Jitsu
Silvio Braga Jiu-Jitsu
Rio Jiu Jitsu - Delaware Jiu Jitsu
I'm going to check out all of these places before I decide to do anything, so let me know what you think.
Thanks in advance.
Post: NeverMan:
OK, this afternoon I went to the Tai Kai place. Much bigger space with partial gym and heavy bags/speed bags. More people.
3 month = 500 up front
6 month = 900 up front
12 month = 250 up front + 125/month = $145/month
First month of first signup is free.
Unlimited Classes, included MMA/BJJ Gi/Grappling No-Gi classes.>
Post: bamboo:
Thats pretty expensive. I paid 240 upfront and 79 a month for 10 months for a 12 month session
What do you have against the bjj?>
Post: NeverMan:
Hey bamboo, that's what I thought. I was paying $65 a month for Danzan Ryu in DC with no contract.
I don't have anything against BJJ, in fact, my first class at Tai Kai they pointed out some good fine points of things that I feel I was missing.
That said, the other side to BJJ is that it is mostly taught as sport, thus leaving way too many things open and being in positions that at a BJJ tournament are "strong", in the real world would be considered very "weak". JMO. Unfortunately, there are no Danzan Ryu places around here and from what I have seen, most of the traditional places don't do live resistance, which I think is extremely valuable.>
Post: zefff:
Expensive aint it? I am right on the limit here at 65 quid per month (130 USD).>
Post: NeverMan:
[quote=zefff;50088 Expensive aint it? I am right on the limit here at 65 quid per month (130 USD).[/quote
so $145/month is normal for BJJ training in your experience?
That seems really high to me, but maybe I'm just a poor student.>
Post: bamboo:
From what I've seen, expect to pay between $80-$150 for grappling instruction from a qualified teacher. Depends on the names and if its the teachers full time job.:wink:>
Post: NeverMan:
So, I went for my second class at Tai Kai last night. We pretty much did the exact same things we practiced Saturday, all of which might be very useful in a BJJ tournament, but in the real world would get you smacked down like a ho on Church street.
One other thing that bothered me was that my sparring partner pointed out that grabbing the thumbs is illegal in BJJ. Illegal!!?? Nothing on the street is illegal. Sigh. Anyways, it's a good workout and they roll every class for at least 15-20 minutes, plus you can stay after and roll more if you want. Also, they have some decent weight equipment and bags and it's unlimited classes for the price.
Tai Kai is probably where I will end up going. I am going for a third class on Saturday.
Tai Kai is actually associated with the Wilmington Jujitsu place who is associated with Phil Migliarese out of Philly. I believe they are called "Team Balance". Anyone ever heard of any of these guys?
BTW, the instructor at Tai Kai is a guy named Bill Walters. He has his brown belt and his other instructor, Jim Morrison, has his purple belt.>
Post: bamboo:
Quote:
One other thing that bothered me was that my sparring partner pointed out that grabbing the thumbs is illegal in BJJ. Illegal!!?? Nothing on the street is illegal
But safety dictates that in order to learn to have to make compromises.
The shittacular canryu jiujitsu system they teach around here has all that fun "dirty" stuff except noone can actually practice it as its "too deadly".
I suggest to not rely on the thumbs and such but keep theem in mind as an option. You get the best of both worlds.
-bamboo>
Post: bamboo:
Seems that tai kai is ultimately under relson gracie, theres your big name.>
Post: zefff:
Forget about attacking digits, using brute force and any other tricks for now and just focus on position above all else. I guess everyone has to get that 'white belt fighting spirit' out of the way first (I know Im not over it yet :D ) but once you get over that and focus on winning by position then you will be much better if you add the dirty stuff ontop of your technical skill when you need it in the streets.
Just be mindful of the dirty stuff and see your chances while rolling, you dont actually need to apply it. I dont even use things like facelocks, elbows to break guard, fist in ear or even a tight knee on belly. I know I can so I dont need to go for it, its better to develop more technical skills - anyone can rend a thumb...but anyway, if you really need to you can still maybe push the thumb off rather than actually grabbing the digit.
peace>
Post: NeverMan:
Yes, ultimately, it's Relson Gracie BJJ.
As far as the thumb, thanks for the comments Bamboo and Zeff. I understand exactly what you are saying, however, I guess I just find it foolish to train.
When training if no one ever attacks that way then defending it will be hard, or at least harder than it would if they did in training, when someone actually does.
I understand the "concept" fighting, where it's not about a static counter-move to a certain attack. That's not what I'm talking about, so much as being comfortable with it.
Also, they apparently don't do front chokes? (Just hand to throat chokes, not talking about grabbing the gi, pulling the head down, etc, etc... talking about pinching the trechea with the thumbs in a regular choke.)
There are just so many rules. It's a good workout though, and they do emphasize position a lot, which is good.
Like I said, they are the only guys (the BJJ-type guys) around (that I have found so far) that do live resistance. That's just sad but I think it's the area I am in. This was obviously not the case in DC.>
Post: Ninja Kl0wn:
They don't do front chokes because a front choke like that will get you armbarred immediately. As far as finger locks, the reason for not really training them is two-fold. One is that small joint manipulation is illegal in BJJ and MMA. The second is that they're not all that reliable. I can still fight hard with a broken finger. I'm pretty much done with a broken arm or when choked unconcious.>
Post: bamboo:
...
Quote: talking about pinching the trechea with the thumbs in a regular choke
Ahh, yes, you only get to really practice that live once though8-).
Keep in mind that in a high stress situation the ability to pinch a small surface area on the body is GREATLY reduced, the large carotid chokes do wonders when you are reduced to gross motor skills.
And Ninja Klown is so right that baby jeebus is crying.
-bamboo>
Post: NeverMan:
LOL.
You say "armbarred immediately". Yeah, sure, if you are applying the Frankenstein front choke. LOL. Who does that? I don't.
Second, you can't use the argument as a defense, so when you say "it's not allowed", that was the point of the argument, that's what makes it vulnerable.
I said: BJJ is weak because some things are illegal and are therefore left out.
You said: That stuff is left out because it is illegal.
I understand BJJ/MMA is a sport and therefore has deficencies like a sport, that was my point.
EDIT: As far as small joint manipulation, SURE, someone can still fight with a couple broken fingers or a broken wrist, but it's more likely they won't want to, and it makes it harder for them to do it. I think that the ease of application for small joint breaks outweighs the "they can still hit you".>
Post: zefff:
I think the point of BJJ rules is to promote positional dominance above all else. My point, which I tried to put across with subtlety, was that if you fight with positional dominance in mind above all else, you will be the one with all the options while your opponent will be the one who is struggling for finger breaks instead of you! 'In the street' (TM) you want to be the one with knee on belly raining down strikes, not the guy who lost his back and is trying to defend a RNC. :lol:
If you are in a position where your unable to defend with broad mechanics, you are outside of your grappling knowledge and have already made the mistake a few moves ago. When you are tapped it is better to think back about how you gave up position then concentrate on the technique which was used to tap you and how to escape that. Its too late! The mistake was the giving up position, not the getting tapped!
At least this is what I think, maybe Im wrong, Im only a white belt. Other guys like Panta or Bushi would know more in depth. As I said you can still roll with strikes and illegal moves in mind, just dont apply them. If they are so easy, why waste time training them. Drill what you are worst at, not what you are best at.
peace.>
Post: NeverMan:
I understand the "position first" mentality, and I agree that it is a very good thing. My concern is that on the street, time is of the essence. You can't roll around for 10 minutes trying to get position, you need to finish and fast, preferably on your feet and not on the ground.
That is one reason I decided to go with Tai Kai over Sachetti's. Tai Kai starts all rolling standing. My one time at Sachetti's they did it from the ground (position) and from knees.>
Post: zefff:
But 'on your feet' IS position too!
...and BTW you dont get position, you lose it. It is you who gives it up to the opponent. So rather than seeking to take position from him I would say the BJJ I have learnt so far is more focused on protecting your own while capitalising on what he gives away, then maintaining what you have gained to continue chipping away and so close his game down till he hits zero options.
...I am only a white belt though. :)
Sparring from the knees is just a thing thats done to avoid injuries and to help you focus on newazza. Focusing on ground then wrestling and takedowns from standing on an alternate day is what a lot of schools do. Maybe you went on the wrong day?
peace bro!>
Post: NeverMan:
Maybe I just have extremely limited experience and knowledge of BJJ because most of the BJJ I have seen always ends on the ground, in fact, that is usually where each person is trying to take it. They are never/rarely trying to maintain position on their feet.
I recently watched a tournament Video where the judge disqualified a guy for "slamming". I guess it's just these kinds of things that make me question BJJ.
Sachetti didn't sound like they normally do stand up since he was shocked that I had done standup at the DZR place, but then maybe he was shocked that any non-BJJ place did randori/rolling/sparring. Don't know.
For pure curiousity, I would like to know of any stories where some of you BJJers have used your BJJ in a real situation and can you describe what happened. I'm not asking to question you, I really am just curious. Thanks.>
Post: zefff:
[quote=NeverMan;50149 Maybe I just have extremely limited experience and knowledge of BJJ because most of the BJJ I have seen always ends on the ground, in fact, that is usually where each person is trying to take it. They are never/rarely trying to maintain position on their feet.[/quote
Yes but one post you mention 'the streets' then next post you are back to sport. We have to be clear. In sport or even some one on one playground fight yes they are going to ground because they know their advantage is clearly there. If it is a true survival scenario with unknown circumstances then no way would even Renzo Gracie want to roll around on the ground. Maybe knee on belly or face down, north south at most, thats still on feet. :) Im sure if you look for real BJJ fight (not duel) vids you will see the guy wanting to stay up.
[quote=NeverMan;50149
I recently watched a tournament Video where the judge disqualified a guy for "slamming". I guess it's just these kinds of things that make me question BJJ.[/quote
Again that is the sports rules. The reason for it is a) neck injuries and b) using brute force is easy, BJJ wants to promote skill development not strength development. If you cant escape that sub attempt without slamming its not BJJ that is the problem, its your lack of knowledge of escapes or skill in pulling them off. You should be aiming to make your opponent be the one who is struggling and tiring themself out while you capitalise on their forceful movements and inevitable fatigue.
[quote=NeverMan;50149
For pure curiousity, I would like to know of any stories where some of you BJJers have used your BJJ in a real situation and can you describe what happened. I'm not asking to question you, I really am just curious. Thanks.[/quote
Well Bushi is a LEO and he is sold on it. Im sure he uses it more than most in his job. I train with a lot of prison officers and doormen etc. They use it to pin people and to get up quickly or reverse a bad situation if they are taken to ground.
I never get into fights but one time someone attacked me in a club. I parried the strike with my rear hand and fed the lead through, past the neck for a nice standing fig. 4 choke from the side. They went to sleep after 2 or 3 seconds and I got chucked out of the club. :roll::lol:>
Post: bamboo:
At my last session at the club the last guy i sparred with went straight to his back a la hugo duarte vs. mark kerr. He said he didn't like to be thrown.
We still went at it, I just know that he'll never improve if he only starts from his comfort zone. Why this silly little story?
If you rely on "dirty" tricks, you lose in the end because you don't have as many tools in your kit.>
Post: NeverMan:
If you rely on "dirty tricks" and the "dirty tricks" work, then how do you lose?
Answer: You don't.
Anyways, to bring this thread to a head, an end, or a conclusion one might say, I have signed a year long contract with Tai Kai at the price of $125/month for 12 months. I'm looking forward to it.>
Post: bamboo:
Best of luck, enjoy yourself.>
Post: zefff:
[quote=NeverMan;50163 If you rely on "dirty tricks" and the "dirty tricks" work, then how do you lose?
Answer: You don't. [/quote
Dirty science beats dirty tricks. When all things are equal who wins?>
Post: Gazelle:
[quote=bamboo;50157 At my last session at the club the last guy i sparred with went straight to his back a la hugo duarte vs. mark kerr. He said he didn't like to be thrown.
We still went at it, I just know that he'll never improve if he only starts from his comfort zone. Why this silly little story?
If you rely on "dirty" tricks, you lose in the end because you don't have as many tools in your kit.[/quote
I can't remember, was it dscott's new quote thingy? But, on one of you guys about here, it was (i apologise for not being positive, especially given dscott posted on this thread, which would make sense, because, he was going with 'the dirty tricks', however you class that), it says, 'i don't fear the man that's done a thousand kicks once, i fear the man that's done one kick a thousand times'...in all honesty you need to be a little in the middle....you begin with no experience, you gain it, as you gain it, you will be drilled with more techniques more times, you'll prob have favourites that you use, the more experience you have, the more of those techniques you 'will have done a thousand times'. It's fine to go back to your favourite 'dirty old tricks', but, just remember to be open to gaining some 'dirty new tricks'....the next technique your drillled with may just be one of them, if your willing to give it a shot. Don't let the dust grow too thick.>
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