how to counter a wild attacker
Original Poster: dtec
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 15-06-2005, 17:43

Orginal Post: dtec: i'm new to these forums. i need advice on how to counter someone who just comes in with head down and fists flying?

State Knife Laws
Original Poster: dscott
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 15-06-2005, 01:30

Orginal Post: dscott: I thought this might be of interest. I'm sure many, including myself, aren't aware of the knife laws in your state.

http://pw1.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

Help!
Original Poster: lax
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 12-06-2005, 04:13

Orginal Post: lax: Hey people. What would be a good martial art to learn for someone in the law enforcement industry. any opinions would be appreciated. It needs to be practical.
I am considering both Hapkido and Krav Maga.
Anyone got any opinions

The Fairbairn System
Original Poster: vladimir
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 09-06-2005, 02:34

Orginal Post: vladimir:


http://www.gutterfighting.org/GTpreface.html

Army Combatives Manual (online)
Original Poster: 8LimbsScientist
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 28-05-2005, 05:29

Orginal Post: 8LimbsScientist: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/

problems
Original Poster: Stg
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 25-05-2005, 04:59

Orginal Post: Stg: if you were like me who freezes when i have to defend myself,what techniques would be best to use in a serious self defense situation,and how would you train to get rid of choking up and forgetting what to do as soon as possible(especially when sparring isn't an option)?

disecting the punch
Original Poster: confusingDot
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 24-05-2005, 12:46

Orginal Post: confusingDot: idea came from post "one inch punch".

Vertical, horizontal fist. Vertical, horizontal forearm/ bicep. Use or no use wrist joint in punch. loose, no loose then tighten, no tighten fist before punch. Push off, no push off back leg. lift, no lift front leg off ground. moves directly along centerline, to side and diagonal to centerline. ithink i got most of the options,a nd of course you can add more.

I personally only have one straight lead punch (you COULD count it as two if you wish). vertical fist and forearm. Use wrist joint. loose then tighten fist. sometimes push off back leg and lift front leg. first punch in combo moves centerline, and the rest moves to side and diagonal to centerline. specifically for my hand, i like to keep it as though i'm holding a pole pointed at the target, but alot more loose, so the pointer is way more out thent he pinky. This helps the direction of the pull of my fingers closing to be only int he forward direction. COmpared to if my whole hand was open then it would pull my hand down (remember that i keep my wrist bent, then I straight it as i punch).

is punching that important
Original Poster: zefff
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 23-05-2005, 20:53

Orginal Post: zefff: A lot of arts use a lot of punching. Its a natural weapon which can be used instinctively and I can see why we started using it but is it the weapon of choice that give best returns?

We have elbows, palms, grabs, pokes, rakes, headbutts and lord knows what else so why is punching such a phenomenon?

Whats so good about punching? Is it all its cracked up to be?

Groin strikes: useful in the street?: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 17-05-2005, 04:30

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Groin strikes: useful in the street?

Pull:
Groin strikes in a street fight?
Effective 87% [ 43  
Ineffective 12% [ 6  
Total Votes : 49
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*Gong*Sao*
I know getting hit in the nuts with a soccer ball or whatever hurts like a bitch, but what I'm asking is, in an all-out street fight, with adrenaline flowing and such, do you think they are effective? I've also heard that many muggers and rapists often wear cups, so that may be another factor to consider. When I say effective, I mean if you were in a win-at-all-costs situation, would you go for a groin shot, or would you stick to bone breaks and throat/nose/joint/eye strikes?
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gojuwarrior1
of course thats effective.i dont care who you are. that is one place that is very vulnarable to pain.Adrenaline pumping or not.unless the opponent dosent have any, i'll go there any time.you should also not count on any one shot ,one kill ,tech. follow up anyway. to the throat,eyes legs ,ex.to make sure he dont retaliate.
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Palm Strike
There are certain drugs that completely annul pain, such as PCP and extreme doses of alcohol. Yes, even adrenaline in extreme degrees can virtually eliminate all the pain of a groin strike. This is why I don't recommend the blow as the only blow used against an attacker. It works great as the first move of a set, because there is the chance that the attacker is not protected by a cup or under the influence of a drug, but a drugged-up attacker with a broken knee is a great deal less effective than a drugged-up attacker with crushed testicles.
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zaius
i don't know about you guys, but as a baseball player, getting hit in the cup still hurts like a *%#&$!!!!

so, i'd still think it's effective.
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Kjkbman
happens all the time in sparring even with a cup on, if u get kicked real good it still hurts like hell prolly phase you for a few seconds.
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kenshinsamuraimusashi
its effective to a point since its easy to block if u try to kick them them their.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
Stop for a second. Think.

You're doing something, say pushing a very heavy piece of machinery up a steep incline. Bear with me here. If you slip or otherwise stop supporting the machine, it will slide back down the ramp and crush you. Something does something, somehow your nuts get smacked and you're in tremendous pain. You know that the pain is just pain. You know that if you falter, that machine will kill you. You push the pain aside and keep on going. It's the instinctual drive for self preservation in all animals that allows this to happen.

Throw in adrenaline, throw in protective equipment, throw in drugs all on top of instinctual self preservation; and groin strikes do nothing because all it does is cause pain. If you crack somebody in the nose, breaking it, they won't stop fighting because it hurts. They may, however, stop fighting because they get blood in their eyes, and have difficulty breathing. Doing damage is different from causing pain, and causing pain is not always a worthwhile goal for a fight.

Besides, as hengest brought up in a previous thread about this very issue (people, please search for old topics instead of repeating the same crap over and over), the groin isn't an easy target. A simple change of stance makes the groin all but inaccessible.
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-=KING UMY=-
.........which is why i voted ineffective
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kronos
It has its uses though. Even though it will not take an attacker out it may serve as a means of distraction so you could follow up with another strike.
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Palm Strike
Assuming you can even get to it . By adjusting your angle by 20-45 degrees, or by simply raising your leg, you guard your crotch from... unnecessary roughness.
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NeverMan
quote:

Originally posted by DeStRuCtIkOn
Stop for a second. Think.

You're doing something, say pushing a very heavy piece of machinery up a steep incline. Bear with me here. If you slip or otherwise stop supporting the machine, it will slide back down the ramp and crush you. Something does something, somehow your nuts get smacked and you're in tremendous pain. You know that the pain is just pain. You know that if you falter, that machine will kill you. You push the pain aside and keep on going. It's the instinctual drive for self preservation in all animals that allows this to happen.

Throw in adrenaline, throw in protective equipment, throw in drugs all on top of instinctual self preservation; and groin strikes do nothing because all it does is cause pain. If you crack somebody in the nose, breaking it, they won't stop fighting because it hurts. They may, however, stop fighting because they get blood in their eyes, and have difficulty breathing. Doing damage is different from causing pain, and causing pain is not always a worthwhile goal for a fight.

Besides, as hengest brought up in a previous thread about this very issue (people, please search for old topics instead of repeating the same crap over and over), the groin isn't an easy target. A simple change of stance makes the groin all but inaccessible.



Im sorry, I have to disagree. People will ignore pain depending on how real they view the threat and how important it is to them not to fight but just flight. There was this women and child in their home who got attacked, (I think i have used this example before too) the guy threw the women up against the wall breaking her arm, she was badly beaten, but as soon as the man starting focking with the kid, the women went crazy berserk, and the guy freaked out and left, she saved herself, by ignoring pain, but also, the guy left (even though he could have easily destroyed both of them if he wanted) because staying to fight wasn't worth the trouble/pain it might have caused him.

Point: Not everyone views every situation as a do or die.

I voted effective. It certainly may stop a fight, and yes it still hurts like hell when you get hit with a cup on, being an old baseball catcher, I know.
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gojuwarrior1
kicking someone in the groin will work on about 90% of the people it is givin. But there are always gonna be times it wont work to its fullist potental.Thats why you must always follow up there should never be just 1 strike always 2 or more. ex. of an effective groin attack -front snap kick to UNDER the groin,(he reacts fully)run or unload,(he reacts only for a second) yari te (spear hand) to eyes or throat then unload.So from my exp. it is a defanite option.
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kronos
Kicks to the groin can also be fatal but I have to agree with DeStRuCtIkOn that in a fight or flight situation if someone is fighting for their life pain will not stop someone. Its like saying okay if I give someone a dead arm he will leave me alone. Think about going head to head with a stronger and more aggressive opponent, would you honestly think that if you gave him one good kick in the nads he would just collapse clutching his groin in agony so you coud continue stomping his head into the floor. Chances are he will go to town on you like a man possesed or should I say unlike a man possesed.

That is why never put your hopes in any one technique to stop someone on the street. That is the Krav Maga philosophy that I go by.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by NeverMan
Point: Not everyone views every situation as a do or die.



Sure, but also, your example proves the point that pain can easily be fought through in situations where "do or die" isn't the mentality. If it works in situations that aren't (relatively) severe, it works, period. So, kick me in the nuts, break my arm, smash my face with your heel; unless you make me unable to fight, I'll still kick your ass. If I can do it, you'd better believe a biker with a taste for Jack Daniels can do it.

All of this, once again, is still assuming you can accurately put the boot to the boys; which is easier said than done.
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setsu nin to
zeppelinfr34k

Groin strikes are real effective in street fight. If you hit real hard and if your anemy isnt lucky that day you may even kill man with it if he dont get medical help on the time, but its not so easy to do that.

So here is ansver to your question. ...if you were in a win-at-all-costs situation, would you go for a groin shot, or would you stick to bone breaks and throat/nose/joint/eye strikes?
I would go for groin strike and after good groin strike I may do whatever I whant to him. I may stick to bone breaks and throat/nose/joint/eye strikes, and much more. But I would do that only if I have chance for groin strike.

But there is one big problem with groin strikes. Noone would "alowed" you to kick him in groin. Its not so easy to do that in real fight with some good fighter or martial artist. Everyone will keep their groins. When you get hard kick in groins fight is over.

Second problem with groin strike is if you faild. If you miss his groin or somethind happend. Your anemy will know that you are trying to kick him in groin and he will try to finish fight, so he maybe use something which he didnt intend to use (some hiden weapon, eye strike, or something that may seriously hurt you).

Groin strike is effective. Fighter which first groin strike his anemy win the fight, but be carefull becouse your anemy knows that, he would probably do anything to finish fight if you try to groin strike him.
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setsu nin to
zaius
i don't know about you guys, but as a baseball player, getting hit in the cup still hurts like a *%#&$!!!!

Well I am not baseball player but I know how it hurts when someone hit you in the cops...

In K-1 turnament in Baser one fighter was kicked in the cup and he had to give up.
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kronos
As a TKD player I sometimes get kicked in the groin in full contact sparring and it does not bother me as long as I have a cup. But I have seen people start acting like they are really hurt to get referree to give a warning or a point deduction.
Personally I find that a cup is all takes for me to nullify a groin shot and I have in the past taken some fairly solid kicks there but I dont know some people may be more sensitive to shots to the groin or maybe they just like to fake injury. I always train with a cup as it would be stupid to do TKD sparring without one as there is a potential to get kicked in the groin when trading round house kicks.
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setsu nin to
kronos

Well if someone kick you hard in the groin and kick is not right it want pain you alot. You may use cup but it all depende on the kick. Sometimes is nothing and sometimes is...
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paa069
Groin shots in todays society can be good or bad. I will give u a few suggestions.
In a club: if you got in a street fight in a club, what most of the times happens, is there will be lots of spectators watching the fight. If the spectators arent watching, and therefore fighting, then i would go for groin shots on most of them. I wouldnt if it was one on one though. One on one groin shots are very cheap, and people will not like you and they wont like your style. Spectators are trying to look for a cool fight, not one that ends in an instant. It depends though. If you want to be known as a social butterfly, and be popular, id play it safe and not do groin shots but rather do nose or neck shots. If you want to be known as someone that you dont mess with, then yes hit to the groin. In any cases, if you feel that your life or one of your limbs is in danger, then definitly use groin shots.
In school: most likely in school, people will have friends that back them up in a fight, it would be a good idea if you had some too. Make sure to fight quickly, or else patrolling faculty may come and negotiate things, and may kick you out.
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nEo-Wolf
I dont care who you are, you get hit in the balls and you'll drop like anyone else...
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jlambvo
I don't think it makes much sense to assume you can't hit the groin just because they try to not let you. Isn't that the case with any vital target?

I like what Des pointed out, inflicting damage is different from inflicting pain. This doesn't mean however that inflicting pain isn't a useful goal of an attack, because however momentary the effect is, it can buy you time and space necessary to inflict real damage. You do however need to know how to take advantage of this effect.

That said, attacking the groin can be useful like any other target on the body: in the right time and place. It doesn't even need to be a power hit. Most guys will reactively pull away from an attack to the groin, and if the desired effect is just to move the pelvis away you might not need to actually hit at all. Furthermore, a light slap leaves a stinging and lingering pain... hitting too hard like any weak point can overload the senses and help "turn off" the pain. Finally, a suprise factor can be one of the most powerful.

I don't see the point in seperating the groin from any other part of the body. Attacking it will have its uses in some situations and you should understand how to exploit it as part of a complete attack. One person might drop from an kick to the nuts, another might go unphased. This is the same with any kind of attack, so consider whether YOU are launching it from a "safe" position.
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ChinoSeoulja
I would say effective but your right, since your adrenaline is rushing the effect of the strike wouldn't be AS bad but it still would hurt like hell. It probably would stop you for a bit because I know for sure that one time I got hit in the groin and it stopped me... but i sucked it up and fought until what was over, was over.
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Hammerhead
Tough call to make, really. I've been kicked in the groin maybe seven or eight times in all my life, and only one incident really stopped me, and even then it didn't drop me dead in my tracks. I had enough fight left in me to throw one final elbow before cussing the guy off and staggering into a corner to inspect the state of my manly equipment Had I been a determined attacker in a real fight, I would probably have continued on sheer adrenaline and rage. All in all, I agree with Des that a shot to the manlies isn't a man-stopper, but, IMHO, it makes for a good target of opportunity as part of a combo - an excellent distraction to set his face up for a good uppercut, if nothing else - and the pain may just prove debilitating enough to stop a fight in its early stages, before the panic juice starts to really flow.
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Gladiator
Hello. "The testes can be kicked, punched, or crushed. A moderate kick or strike to an assailant's groin can cause a variety of possible reactions including severe pain, nausea, vomiting, shortness of breath, and possible sterility. A powerful strike to the groin may crush the scrotum and the testes against the pubic bones, causing shock and unconsciousness." ____War Machine (fantastic book)
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by Gladiator
Hello.



Hi.

quote:

"The testes can be kicked, punched, or crushed. A moderate kick or strike to an assailant's groin can cause a variety of possible reactions including severe pain, nausea, vomiting, shortness of breath, and possible sterility. A powerful strike to the groin may crush the scrotum and the testes against the pubic bones, causing shock and unconsciousness." ____War Machine (fantastic book)



Don't believe everything you read, and the last time I checked Sam Franco was not a medical doctor. There's nothing special about the nutsack except that we all would much rather protect it than not. Especially with common circumstances like drunkenness, adrenaline spikes and drug usage, pain is not a factor. The nausea and loss of breath result from systems not being able to cope with pain. If pain is not a factor, than neither of those events take place. Making a guy sterile helps you none in a fight. With all the meat in place in standard human anatomy, the blow that forces the nutsack into the coccyx would have to be from a freakishly strong individual.

Don't believe everything you read.
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kronos
For all who doubt the stopping power of a strike to the testicles here is a news article I spotted on the web:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2703355.stm

I dont know exactly how the strike connected to cause a fatality, but it tells me that a groin strike could be lethal.
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DeStRuCtIkOn


quote:

"The evidence of the doctor clearly shows that death was caused due to neurogenic shock resulting from injury to testicles and scrotum," a two-judge bench said.



Neurogenic shock can be caused by physical trauma anywhere and is essentially the same thing that causes knockouts. Much like knockouts, situations have to be just so for things like this to occur. This incident won't be replicated.
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zefff
nuts can be well hidden away and protected by well developed leg muscles or fat.

If u really have to go there, its better to feint strongly then go 4 the point of jaw. Rattling the brain is the best thing to aim to achieve in my opinion. The brain controls all functions, the bollox do not.
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Guyanson_Mendiola
quote:

Originally posted by nEo-Wolf
I dont care who you are, you get hit in the balls and you'll drop like anyone else...

that is true!
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asag2
I would have to agee with the majority and say that a kick to the groin is extremely effective. Like some of you said it may not be the single move that puts your opponent out of commission, but if you use it in conjunction with other moves then it can be devastating.
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peacefulwarrior
quote:

Originally posted by kronos
As a TKD player I sometimes get kicked in the groin in full contact sparring and it does not bother me as long as I have a cup. But I have seen people start acting like they are really hurt to get referree to give a warning or a point deduction.
Personally I find that a cup is all takes for me to nullify a groin shot and I have in the past taken some fairly solid kicks there but I dont know some people may be more sensitive to shots to the groin or maybe they just like to fake injury. I always train with a cup as it would be stupid to do TKD sparring without one as there is a potential to get kicked in the groin when trading round house kicks.



Full contact sparring is just that sparring in sparring your strikes and kicks are controlled mainly to setup for the next kick or strike. In sparring your not standing square with your opponent your are at an angle. In the street a mugger is not going to come up to you and get in a guard stance. I think if your going to go for the groin you should make sure you have a clear shot for it to be effective and if you put full power into a kick to the groin cup or no cup it will hurt. If they are wearing a cup it may not be as damaging but it will hurt.
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Ironjim
I'd do pretty much anything to win in a fight, so I'd probably aim for that groin if I had a clear shot at it
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EastSideSyndicate
Guest
Why just talk about it...why put it up for a vote? If you want REAL answers go out and try it! You will then get the answer you require...
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jlambvo
It can be worse if you just tag the 'boys, especially if the attack is hidden. If you see a full-on snap kick coming and you have the adrenaline high, you have time to prepare for the impact physically AND mentally... of course, this applies to most any attack.
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[email  This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it [/email 


quote:

I know getting hit in the nuts with a soccer ball or whatever hurts like a bitch, but what I'm asking is, in an all-out street fight, with adrenaline flowing and such, do you think they are effective? I've also heard that many muggers and rapists often wear cups, so that may be another factor to consider. When I say effective, I mean if you were in a win-at-all-costs situation, would you go for a groin shot, or would you stick to bone breaks and throat/nose/joint/eye strikes?



You realize that it would not be hard to break a cup with a full blown kick if you put some power into it. Lets say you kicked someone and it did not break it put pushed it up into there body.... that is still going to put them in some serious pain and prolly render them useless.
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The Axe Murderer
Groin strikes in a street fight is definetly effective but I think that is a free shot unless you block and not stay there like a dumb person.
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AnomalE
i found that in sparing and a couple street fights that feinting a strike to the groin (inexcessible because of the stance he was in) prevokes a "knee jerk" type reaction that brings a arm down to block the supposed attack completely opening up the head/chin/throat area

just my 10 cents

keep the change
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jlambvo
That's probably true a great majority of time. I can't remember who said it, but every man has an 8th dan in protecting his boys. Even if there isn't a huge external reaction, the thought WILL cross his mind and tension introduced into the body, which might be all you need. There is actually a kata from Koto ryu koppojutsu that describes this--and then uses the dropping of the raised foot to power a strike to the torso. One of those things someone found useful centuries ago and still is today.

Some people say that attacks to areas like the groin is a sign of overconfidence in silly " TMA dirty fighting," but I think they are just as overconfident that such a strike will bounce harmlessly off of them. The problem with these techniques amongst crappy TMAist is the same as ANY technique: assuming that it will stop the fight so that you do it from a bad position and leave yourself open.
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Link from Russia
Original Poster: jackal_ru
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 05-04-2005, 17:37

Orginal Post: jackal_ru: http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com/spetsnaz-hand-to-hand-combat.htm

Internal/External article
Original Poster: Gong||Jau
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 21-12-2004, 08:45

Orginal Post: Gong||Jau: This article makes some good points regarding classifying arts as internal or external, and also sums up the question really well. Worth reading for everyone, especially those who aren't too sure of the differences:

http://www.shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm

It's slightly biased toward internal arts IMO, but if you read it as an informative piece and not an argument, it's quite interesting.

how to block step in side kicks
Original Poster: zenjitsu
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 01-12-2004, 05:44

Orginal Post: zenjitsu: hi,,
has anyone found a great way to block side kicks, the step/skip in type in particular...

thanks..

Defense against knife: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 30-11-2004, 17:41

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Defense against knife

setsu nin to
How many of you practice defense against knife using real knife and not some not dengerous knife for practice?
Did you get some injury? I did
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Ninja Kl0wn
You practice with a training blade so you don't get yourself killed if you screw up. Try working Sayoc 3 of 9 with a live blade.
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setsu nin to
Ninja Kl0wn

In many Japanese (and many others) martial arts schools you have to practice with real knife after some time. So its nothing new...
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Palm Strike
There is also, of course, the retractable knife- also known as the vanishing dagger, that one can use. It's nothing more than a toy, really, but I've found it quite valuable as a beginner's training tool. When one gets to a level where the subtleties of a knife's weight become important, of course, a real knife must
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DeStRuCtIkOn
In another thread, Klown suggested the use of marker training. Before you consider working with live blades, use that method. When you're done for the day, see all the red or black or whatever marks on your clothes and on your body. If you were using a real blade, those would all be potentially lethal slashes and would require medical attention.
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setsu nin to
I like that suggestion from Ninja Kl0wn. To use something that would leave just a mark on your clothes or body. It could go beween using some wooden or plastic weapon and using some real weapon.
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Ninja Kl0wn
Lining the edge of a training blade with chalk works better than the marker, provided both of you wear white while training. That way you get the entire blade as a cutting surface rather than just the tip of the marker.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by Ninja Kl0wn
Lining the edge of a training blade with chalk works better than the marker, provided both of you wear white while training. That way you get the entire blade as a cutting surface rather than just the tip of the marker.



How many slashes do you get before the chalk is all gone?
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craazyphil
In kempo and taijutsu we practice with wooden knives. I lua we usually practice with wooden knives, but occasionally use real (and sharp) knives. My lua teacher's favorite is the heavy marine issue K-bar.
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setsu nin to
In my opinion working with real weapon is better, becouse there is no mistake, every mistake you feel on your own skin:-)
Ofcourse you may not start wih real weapon, but after some time its good to learn echniques using real weapon.
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aldarianraider
I believe that in training for knive defense, you must work your way up. Start off with a marker or a wooden/rubber training knive. After that, switch to a blunted knive. Then work your way up to the real thing once you are comfortable. Just go gradually. In other martial arts you have to work your way up, so why should this be any different? Besides, if you start off with the real thing and you get slashed in the throat, you can't learn from the mistake. Sure, training with the real thing right off the bat may make you think and react just a bit quicker, but I still believe that you should train and work your way up the chain just to be safer about it.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by aldarianraider
In other martial arts you have to work your way up, so why should this be any different?...if you start off with the real thing and you get slashed in the throat, you can't learn from the mistake.



You answered your own question.

Even if you get comfortable and work your way up to training with a live blade, you get cut once, only once, and you die, or are scarred for life. Now, let me ask a question: would you rather die in the street because of faulty training, or die in training before you even had a shot at proper defense?

And keep in mind that no amount of training will make you invincible. You could be the guy to talk to about knives and still get stabbed to death.
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Hammerhead
I guess it's all dependent on what you're willing to sacrifice and willing to risk in the training process, as well as what your ultimate training goals. True, all the training in the world won't make you invincible, but it's better to train than not at all
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Tae Kwon Do Tiger
quote:

Originally posted by Warhammer
True, all the training in the world won't make you invincible, but it's better to train than not at all




very true warhammer i train all i can and i know i will be beaten eventually but it is all part of the process of becoming better
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Ackaheru
In my years of Close Combat training, i have *always* trained -edged weapons- with rubber/plastic weapons.
You cannot afford ONE mistake if training with a real weapon, so you just cannot train with a real "dangerous" weapon...

[quote=setsu nin to In my opinion working with real weapon is better, becouse there is no mistake, every mistake you feel on your own skin:-)
Ofcourse you may not start wih real weapon, but after some time its good to learn echniques using real weapon.[/quote 

Dude, you know, it's not the pain, its just, you just DIE...
Even well trained, i can make mistakes, even -even- more trained, my old trainer (dad, hehe) can make mistakes... And if it is the case (it APPENNED), god KNOWs we were happy we were using ugly rubber replicas....
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setsu nin to
Ackaheru

Well I practice moust with real blades. Thats how it goes in moust traditional Japanese schools. After some time you have to work with real blades. Ofcourse I started with wooden and plastic knifes, but now I have to practice with real blades.

I cut myself few times but it was outside the Dojo. I dont remember that I heard that anyone cut himself in Dojo practicing under control of Sensei.
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cross
Setsu nin to,

What kind of knife training do you do?
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george stiles
if u got cut u need to practice a more realistic knife defense u should never try to take the nife from the person unless pinned into a corner. run away and throw shiznit at your atacker i have found that there is no proper way to ketch a bar stool. look for weapons around you that could be useful as a distance weaopon also a mop or broom can work wonders in a bad situation
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TKDman
I fail to see the logic in training with a real knife. All it would take would be for you to lose your concentration and you could die or be seriously injured. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes so why gamble with your life in training. With a marker, you can afford that mistake and you won't be hurt. Plus, the person with the knife will probably, even subconsciously, hold back because with a real knife they could kill or wound you. Someone on the street is not going to hold back and with a marker you don't need to hold back. You can try you darndest to cut them just like in real life. So I ask y'all why a real knife?
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setsu nin to
cross

All cainds of knifes. I practiced with more than 150 diferent knives.
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setsu nin to
In my opinion realy blades are much better becouse they become learning how to use blade more realistic. Real blades force you to think and concentrate yourself on practicing. There is no place for mistake.
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TKDman
I still don't understand why a real knife. You don't use a loaded gun with the safety off when doing gun disarms do you? No sense in killing yourself in training while training for an event that "might" happen.
And like I said last time, how can you be sure that whoever's wielding the knife will be trying their hardest to cut you or vice versa. Subconsciously, you must be holding back, even just a little. Your opponent on the street is not going to hold back

I'm not trying to disrespect the way you train. So don't get me wrong. I just don't see why you should risk life and limb in training. Your training to avoid exactly that, losing your life or limbs. All it would take would be one slip...
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dcohen
Yes, it is more dangerous, but not every nick or slash will kill you.

Real blades are different for many reasons, but the most important one is your psychological response. No matter how real the training blade is, you KNOW it won't kill you. So, in the dojo, you pull the 'fearless' thing and get in close to dispose of the person using the offending knif without a real problem. A REAL blade tends to evoke a very severe 'flight' response, making you get the hell away from the knife. God forbid you have these beautiful extending techniques from Kali or Silat or Dumog or whatever, and then someone comes along and shows you a real knife with a real sharp edge and suddenly you feel like you're totally out of control and don't want to come near the thing and none of your training 'works' from there.

You want to train for working against knives? Get accustomed with training from an unbalanced, "shrinking back" scared position.

For those who love to say it can never be done, I have several fellow martial classmates/friends who have successfully worked from a completely surprising knife deployment which is suddenly slashing/stabbing fast. But if you are sure that no one can do it reliably, that's the only thing you're guaranteeing...you'll never be able to do it.

Thought I'd add my 2 cents.

-David

You want to hear from people who have done it... check out http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12042

I have the honor and the pleasure of having "Gaucho" as a classmate.
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setsu nin to
Practicing with real blades maybe look more dengerous, and by the logic its more dengerous. But there are two things tha we have to say about it. Noone wont come to Dojo and start working with real blades widouth any experience. You have to work with plastic/wooden weapons for years to start practicing with real blades. Second important thing is what dcohen said, No matter how real the training blade is, you KNOW it won't kill you . Thats real important. But all the time you know that you work with real blades and that someone may injured you, so you and your partner will work much more carefull. When you use wooden or plastic weapons many people think "it cant hurt me, its fake weapon" and than they found out that they are wrong.

If you and your partner respect eachother andhave enought knowledge and try not to hurt yourself or your partner than everything will be be OK.




dcohen

Whats all that about 2 cents? Why 2 cents?
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dcohen
Oh, 2 cents is a figure of speech...it just means..."here is my contribution to the topic" or something similar

Good point as well - if you come in looking for self defense, you don't train with live blades full-on right away...just like you don't train with live BB guns for disarms from 5 feet away right at your first day...

It is stupid to imagine that you will. First training blades (I prefer using metal ones, just not sharpened...adds a little of the "fear" to the training if you're going full speed), then lots of training, and then if you are truly committed and want to take your training further...once you are a real "student"...real blades.

That's how I see it.

-David
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bamboo
I trained only ONCE with a real blade.

Basically it was just as Setsu and Dcohen said it was in earlier posts.
It changed the way I approach knife taking techniques entirely. I felt confident having faced many wooden tanto, but just truly knowing that this can seriously injure or even kill you added a whole new sensation I had yet to feel.

I really approach these techniques in a much more cautious manner than before and try to emphasize to my kohai how important it is to realize that taking a wooden practice knife from your bud at the dojo is nothing like facing a real blade. Got to keep the egos down.

oh yeah, I got cut

-bamboo
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cross
Do you practice techniques where you try to invite the attacker, then step out of the way, and try to trap the attacker with a wrist lock? Or do you practice deflecting, or do you practice both deflecting and locking. I've practiced with both real and plastic knives. I prefer plastic knives, but when I practice I try to make the attacker switch up his attacks, and attack as fast as possible. I think the speed and skill of the knife attacker has more to do with if one uses a real or plastic knife, well that is only when a person is attaking another person. I think it's allright to definitely practice with real knives on your own.
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TKDman
Thanks for the explanation. Of course you would need extensive training before even attempting to work with a real blade.


quote:

If you and your partner respect eachother andhave enought knowledge and try not to hurt yourself or your partner than everything will be be OK.



That's the thing though, on the street, the other guy is going to try to hurt you. So for those training with real blades, how do you combat that subconscious will to not hurt your partner?
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setsu nin to
dcohen

Yes, you are right. I agree with your post.
Everyting have to go step by step.

Well now I will give all dolar so that noone cant say how setsu nin to is miser
So here is my 1$.

I started with wooden blades than after long time of traning I took real blades, but not sharped and with round top. it was just to get used on real blade in my hand. After that I started with real blades but only not sharped and after that I start using real blades. There is one more important thing. I never use real blade when I practice with someone who is not on knowledge level to use real blades.
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setsu nin to
cross

Well I practice all techniques with real blade almoust same as with fake blade.



TKDman
That's the thing though, on the street, the other guy is going to try to hurt you. So for those training with real blades, how do you combat that subconscious will to not hurt your partner?

I think that its individual. For me key is respect for example. But I always have in my head "be carefull and dont hurt him its just practicing". Some little setsu nin to in my head is talking all the time "go harder, go harder" but big setsu nin to in my head is talking all the time "be carefull, dont hurt him its just practicing".
In my opinion you have to develop things like that by practicing.
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dcohen
Great posts setsu.

In addition, there are different ways to train with a real blade. You can do work to accustom yourself to a blade...having your partner slowly place it onto your skin and push, so your body moves to not get cut. This also takes a lot of the fear away which won't really help you in a combat situation where a real blade is deployed, and builds the 'respect' that you should have for what a blade can do. Your body will move very differently when it knows that if it doesn't yield, your skin will be cut.

There is this side to live blade, training, and then just...well, training. Something that you'll never recreate in training is the INTENT of a guy or girl off the street trying to kill you. Most will not think "I'm gonna cut this guy" or "I'm gonna slash around now" (unless they are experienced knifers and have trained to mask their intent)...a huge majority of knife situations are between people who are under the influcence of some kind of drugs and/or in a total fit of rage.

This makes it actually easier to deal with than someone who thinks in terms of his own movement, without projecting 'feelable' intent. This kind of training is a bit higher-level to deal with, because it will be quick to severely injure or kill you if you don't know what you're doing.

Sorry for the jumbled post, I'll write more later.

-David
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setsu nin to
dcohen

Well we definetly agree about knives

I will never forget when I first time practiced with real sharped knife. I was concentrate as never before and after that. I was 100% focused on knife in his hand. My palms were wet, I was adrealin bomb, heart was beating 100000/min...
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doubleouch
The problem with practicing with real blades is that the attacker will have to pull his punches so to speak. No one here can tell me that they practice with real live sharp blades with the attacker intent on doing real dammage. If so they would be dead or badly maimed. There is no way to do it I don't care how good you think you are. Go ask Dan Innosanto and he will tell you the same. I do agree that trying it once with control and limited intent can bring out the seriousness of the situation for you.
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zefff
...so should we just stick to rubber knives and marker pens then? of course not!

everybody starts small and grows bigger. You cant say "oh that cant be done". Of course u cant go mad on your partner with a blade cos u need him but you can progress onto higher levels from small beginings. I rarely use real knife, but when I have done I use the practice for making my hands respond even quicker. Building speed and fluidity.

I think the key point when preparing for actual blade attacks is that people who REALLY want to stick it in you dont show you the blade and their intentions, whereas if they just wanna intimidate you they will wave it in your face and threaten you.

At the moment (with real blades), I am at the wave it in my face stage...and maybe telegraph it slightly too please!
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doubleouch
Well, If when you train the real blade you don't go full out then what good is the training? You are better off going full tilt with rubber knives than slow motion with real blades. The timing, footwork, distance and movement is the same whether you use rubber or steel. If you slow everything down or don't attack with commitment because you are afraid of injuring your opponent then the timing, distance, footwork and movement breaks down and you aren't training anything.
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setsu nin to
doubleouch

Thats why you dont start with real blades. Your partner have to start with "real" intend to hutrt you, but he have to be raedy to stop his attack in any time. Something like Shotokan competitions. You go with full force and than you have to stop.
If you are beginer and some expert attack you with woodne knife and if he whant to hurt you he will hurt you even kill if he whant. So you learn techniques first with fake knife and you da same techniques for tundert times, than you do same techniques hunderts times with real blade which dont have sharped blade, and than you can do same techniques with sharped knife.
Exelent technique is not all. On first place is RESPECT and from respect come CONTROL and from control come LIMITS. If you dont have respect to your partner dont practice with real blades, if you dont have enought controle of blade on your hand dont practice with real blades, if you dont know your and ypur partners limits dont practice with real blades.
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Ackaheru
In my oppinion, training with real blade is too dangerous, even with well trained people...
However, in public shows, or in open day.. days, i guess thats nicer to show the public a training with real blades.... but it must be occasional and bla bla bla, because i really believe we cannot afford one mistake with lethal weapons...
imo...
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pats0
If you are training with a REAL knife and you are not getting cut often then your training partner is not trying to "kill" you or hurt you. I'd rather train against a partner trying to "kill" me with a plastic or wood knife than a partner with a real knife who is being careful not to hurt me.

I'm not saying that live blade training shouldn't be used at all. It really helps the psychological aspect of blade training.

setsu nin to, have you ever trained with a real gun?
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setsu nin to
If you are geting cut often that it means that you dont know to defende yourself and if you cant defende yourself that real blades are not for you.
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dcohen
There is tremendous value in going slow (see the Slow Sparring Game).

There always has to be a balance between slow and fast training. Hell, less than a week ago I trained with a 3" bladed rubber knife and an AMOK! Instructor going 75% on me. Did I die? Hell yes! Did I get cut up everywhere? You bet your ass I did. The point is, a trained knifer who can mask his intent and targets and uses a tiny blade is the martial artist's worst nightmare. If you can figure out how to minimize the cuts you take, and get in hits that count, you are on the road to an opening to draw your own blade or run away.

A balance of slow and fast sparring will give you a chance to slowly ACT on the split-second possibilities, after you miss them and get cut enough (be it with a training blade or a real one).

Knife training is serious stuff, and it deserves serious thought and careful learning methodology.

-David
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doubleouch
Nice post cohen. Good thoughts.
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8LimbsScientist
quote:

Originally posted by setsu nin to
If you are geting cut often that it means that you dont know to defende yourself and if you cant defende yourself that real blades are not for you.



If you are in a fight with a knife-wielder you will get cut. Just like if you are in a fist fight you will get punched. No amount of training is going to let you walk out of a serious fistfight without being touched, and by the same token you won't walk away from a knife fight without a scratch on you.

So if you are in your dojo practicing with an actual live blade against a training partner who is really trying to kill you then you would HAVE to leave covered in cuts and every once in a while, someone will end up getting stabbed. Besides, accidents do happen...we aren't supposed to kick people in the balls in class, but ever once in a while it happens. Same thing with a knife...with a live blade sooner or later someones going to get seriously injured.

I think the idea of using a real blade and making things easier is counterproductive versus using a rubber blade full speed. I recognize the value of going slow at first but you can do that wiht a rubber blade too. And if you are using a live blade at 100% intensity someone is going to get hurt eventually...it has to happen.

Walking away from your dojo covered in your own blood everyday or even every once in a while is ridiculous in my opinion. You want to learn self-defense, but the most significant danger to yourself is the dojo itself in this instance.
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zefff
YAWN YAWN YAWN!!!

Im sorry to be rude but I aint no kid, noone can tell me what I can and cant do! If Im wrong, I guess I'll learn when I am dead.

I never said I spar full contact with real knife. I work with them. It is about developing respect as setsu said. Rubber knives are shiznit in my opinion. They are VERY removed from the real thing. They are joke toys. They bend FFS! If you only work with rubber and wood u will not develop a true serious spirit in knifework IMHO. Even unsharpened metal is good but not as serious as sharp edged. When you drill with edges you feel yourself go quiet and focused.

Ive seen people get cut when they are distracted. Its not nice but they sure did learn from it. Its all about respect.

And I am sorry to pick on your statement 8limb' but I can think of two serious fist fights I have been in and not gotten hit. And Ive not really had that many myself. Outcomes are infinite. Rant over.
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8LimbsScientist
No one else on this entire board thinks they can walk through a fist or knife fight and not get punched or cut even once. This leads me to believe you are either fooling yourself or you are the greatest fighter ever. And yes, I know you didn't say EVERY fight, but if you managed to walk out untouched after one fight out of 100 fights, then why even mention it?

Rubber knives might be far removed from the real thing, but so are live blades used with restraint. If you can manage to pick off every strike your partner throws at you with a live blade at 50% speed and readiness to stop at a moments notice, then you might not necessarily be able to stop any strikes at 100% speed where your opponents intent is to kill you. If its all about respect then thats as far removed from the real thing as it could possibly be, because on the street its NOT about respect.

No matter what, if you are ready to stop your strike in order to save your partner then you CANNOT be as commited to the strike as if you were trying to kill someone.

Now if the use of the live blade is only for mental reasons to calm yourself, then that is different, but keep in mind that accidents do happen and you have to ask yourself if this is defeating the whole purpose of self defense in the first place. Besides, shouldn't the bulk of your training be concentrated on full speed, full commitment sparring when you are ready?
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zefff
I hear wot u r sayin and am not gonna argue wiv ya mate any more after this post. I will address your points first though.

quote:

No one else on this entire board thinks they can walk through a fist or knife fight and not get punched or cut even once. This leads me to believe you are either fooling yourself or you are the greatest fighter ever. And yes, I know you didn't say EVERY fight, but if you managed to walk out untouched after one fight out of 100 fights, then why even mention it?



I do think I can get hit. I know I can get hit. I respect other peoples abilities. Why did I mention it?...cos it is possible. It is a fact.

quote:

Rubber knives might be far removed from the real thing, but so are live blades used with restraint. If you can manage to pick off every strike your partner throws at you with a live blade at 50% speed and readiness to stop at a moments notice, then you might not necessarily be able to stop any strikes at 100% speed where your opponents intent is to kill you. If its all about respect then thats as far removed from the real thing as it could possibly be, because on the street its NOT about respect.



Its a 50/50 thing. Some slow work, some fast work. If you go full speed at everything you cant analyze and reflect on what is exactly happening. As for respect, I meant as I said above. Respect for the abilities and potential consequences of techniques, positions and movements blah, blah, etc, etc. I did not mean bowing my head before a battle and calling out my lineage!

quote:

No matter what, if you are ready to stop your strike in order to save your partner then you CANNOT be as commited to the strike as if you were trying to kill someone.



We save full force for sparring. We dont spar with real blades.


quote:

Now if the use of the live blade is only for mental reasons to calm yourself, then that is different,



yes

quote:

but keep in mind that accidents do happen and you have to ask yourself if this is defeating the whole purpose of self defense in the first place.



what exactly do you mean here? Is this not like saying "if you get hit in the nose when training in MT then surely it is defeating the purpose...?"

quote:

Besides, shouldn't the bulk of your training be concentrated on full speed, full commitment sparring when you are ready?



Maybe yours, but I believe in 50/50. Sparing for me is the lab where I test, but I need to work theories on the chalk board too, no?

Peace to you anyway bro. I am just defending the FMA knifework I have trained in. Im not brilliant by any means but I recognise that I am in a better position to defend myself against blades than I was before I took it up. That is all.
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doubleouch
8 Limb got it exactly right.
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8LimbsScientist
Zefff, I wasn't looking for an argument or anything, I was just looking for discussion and clarification.

I misunderstood the statement about not getting hit, my bad!

Anyway, thanks for clarifying, this all makes much more sense to me now.
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setsu nin to
8LimbsScientist

If you are in a fight with a knife-wielder you will get cut. Just like if you are in a fist fight you will get punched. No amount of training is going to let you walk out of a serious fistfight without being touched, and by the same token you won't walk away from a knife fight without a scratch on you.

Realy? Very interesting...

And how than self defense against knife widouth hurting is posible? We all saw so many examples of it.
If you were ever in police, military or security you know what I an talking about and if you never been in any of these than you could see some demonstration or report on TV.

Ofcourse that is posible to be in serious without being punched. What do you think how it would look like that security in some night bar is punched every time when they have to stop some fight. Or that police officer is punched every time when he whant to stop fight. About military I even dont whant to talk.

Fake knife is something 100% diferent than real knife and you cant compare traning with realy and fake knife.
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doubleouch
Setsu,
some people get lucky. Some attackers don't know what they are doing. Some attackers are intent only in intimidating only. If someone has even rudementary knife skills, and is intent on killing you, you will be dead. Don't believe me? Try it in the gym. What's a good success rate? I died one out of three times, one out of five.I don't like those odds. No one is saying don't practice knife vs empty hand defense, just realize that the odds are very much stacked against you.
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setsu nin to
doubleouch

Don't believe me? Try it in the gym.
First of all dont writte to me as to some retarted kid who never enterd the Dojo.

Second, I "lost" many times practicing in Dojo somtimes even with injury, but when I had to defende myself in real situation then I defende myself from knife, broken gless, peak, widouth any injury. Well to be honest there was one injury from broken glass botle, but it was so small injury that I even didnt have to go to hospitaly.
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zefff
I think the thing to keep in perspective is that as with all antagonistic situations it is most important to disarm the brain first.

Wether the attacker has bare fists or even a gun, its the mind of the attacker that controls their actions.

When sparring with knife in the gym it is hard to replicate a street scenario because you and your partner are aware of each others capabilities and methods. On the street the only advantages and disadvantages are percieved ones. The battle is not just a physical one.

My older brother has had gun pulled on him here in UK where we are not accustomed and managed to face down the threat. Winning (surviving) by disarming the aggressive attitude of the attacker without getting physical. If he just went for a disarm or whatever then of course yes he would most likely of gotten shot.
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Are reality based systems really based in reality?
Original Poster: Bushi
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 30-11-2004, 11:10

Orginal Post: Bushi: Discuss?

nodding and lifting
Original Poster: Umy
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 18-11-2004, 16:59

Orginal Post: Umy: OK, this will sound cheesy I know, but its worked so many times for me I decided to share it with you, this is a very very simple method.

Ive shared this with a few of the guys before and decided to post it here, its a simple yet effective method of showing you 'mean no harm' to other people whilst also getting a fairly rough idea about whether or not people mean harm to you.

Have you ever walked past someone who gave you a stare? Perhaps a mean looking chap that you dont want to show weakness to by putting your head down and walking past quickly, or maybe your looking fairly rough yourself and dont want to draw negative attention towards you? What do you do that will show you mean 'no harm' or are after 'no trouble'?

I have a tested way of answering these questions and problems with a simple lift of your eyebrows and nod of your head.

Greetings can be done in several ways from far off, verbally, a wave of the hand, other physical gestures, which is fine.

However the single best way to find out someones emotions and make yourself not look as much of a threat (in my experience) is a simple not of the head and lifting of the eyebrows, no smiling, just those 2 actions.

I have found time and time again that if the other person nods back, smiles, or gives me some other form of physical positive gesture they generally mean no harm.

This has even applied to groups of teenagers, drunk and sober before you ask :lol:

So your thinking, what if they dont nod back?

Well it isnt rocket science, you then know that the person infront of you may very well not want peace and love, either that or they havent seen you nod (in which case it beats waving and saying hello as you wont like a fool if your ignored :lol: ).

If you do continually get stared out after you have nodded just ignore the person, they are probably after some trouble and by doing anything else they may very well find it, if someone gives me a mean look after I nod at them I generally tend to keep my eyes on my man as he walks past till he is a at a fairly far distance out the corner or my eye.

I often find myself in rough clothing with leather gloves or dangerous jewellery that doesnt get too much positive feedback from most, so I often use the nod to show that I mean no harm, this is generally a lot more relieving to people such as the elderly who feel a lot more vunerable and feel a little more at ease if they are greeted in a positive way, especially when they are in dangerous places and they get a smile instead of a frown.

A really simple yet effective trick ive given for showing I didnt want trouble on a night or in rough areas, try it, and let me know if you get bottled :lol:

Stances: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 24-09-2004, 17:56

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Stances

What stance do you use when training for self-defence?
Boxing/Kickboxing-type stance 38% [ 19  
Muay Thai stance 22% [ 11  
Wrestling/Grappling stance 2% [ 1  
"Traditional" stance (e.g. horse stance, front stance, etc.) 16% [ 8  
Other 22% [ 11  
Total Votes : 50
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Hengest
I'm interested to know, when you're training for self-defence, what stance do people here use? Do you use the usual stance your style throws techniques from or do you adapt it in any way? If you vote for "Other", post with more details.

And remember, this is when training for self defence, not for competition, forms, etc.
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CreepingDeth
I train in muay Thai, but we aren't very traditional thus we actually use more of a kickboxing stance. So, I voted for that. But depending on the scenario, I may switch to a wrestling type of stance.
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Arjun
While i think the boxing stance is the best all around form to launch any kind of offense or defense from, i chose other only because i believe it all depends on the situation, especially if the opponent favors a type of attack style (like TKDists will kick more, and boxers will punch more, etc), or there is more than one opponent.
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Tobiel
sometimes i go with a kickboxing /muay thai stance , open handed of course for grappling. but for sparring matches i go with ginga( capoeria) its fun and lively , plus the crowd loves it
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BlackFighter06
Thats really vague, I mean, when I train for sparring or something I'm in a boxer stance.When I want to condition I'll use low traditional stances. It all just depends on what I'm doing.
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Hengest


quote:

Thats really vague



When I say self-defence training, I'm talking about when practicing the techniques to be used for self-defence, real combat, etc.
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PTK_PITBULL!16
i do a bladed position. that and a neutral bow.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
Muay Thai for training. whatever for a real encounter.
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Fightauthority.com
In self-defense training, we mostly use a modified kickboxing / grappling stance. Hand are open, but in a "boxing" position, but out more, kindof like a thai hand position. Footwork is like boxing, or using the Aiki two step. Hands are open to grab, throw, block, etc.

A good example is in the Ask Sensei Video Training:
http://www.fightauthority.com/cmm/viewforum.php?f=53

Look at the reaction drills.

Also, when you first start drilling for self-defense, your hands should be down and non-threatening. Once you put your hands up, people are expecting a fight. But, once the attack comes that is when you adapt your guard.
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Hengest


quote:

when you first start drilling for self-defense, your hands should be down and non-threatening. Once you put your hands up, people are expecting a fight. But, once the attack comes that is when you adapt your guard.



Matt, Destructikon, thank you. At last somebody gave the kind of response I was hoping for. Not to say that there's a right or wrong answer but I was starting to get a little disheartened that no one mentioned training from casual, or seemingly "casual", stances.

Doesn't anyone else here train to throw techniques from a normal standing position, or something similar? It is a skill that you really should not be without if training for reality defence. As soon as you adopt a normal fighting stance any hopes of a surprise offence go out the window. I've been meaning to write an article on this for the site for some time; maybe I should get my arse in gear. That said, your reaction drill videos are great Matt. (Although seeing you in the flesh is a little scary: shave your head and we could be brothers!).
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by Hengest
Doesn't anyone else here train to throw techniques from a normal standing position, or something similar?



I have a "sucker punch" drill. i stand totally relaxed, like if I were just standing on the street waiting for a bus or something. Then I just explode with what is somewhere between a boxing jab and a JKD lead hand strike. The power is dependent on the quick rotation of my hips, and the effect is dependent on surprise. It targets the solar plexus, instead of the face like most normal jabs and LHSs. Figured I'd share for all of you since Hengest brought it up.
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Hengest


quote:

I have a "sucker punch" drill.



Yeah, now that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind! I think these are the kind of drills we should be discussing in the Reality Defense forum because they're the ones that, more often than not, are going to save your arse.
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Fightauthority.com
Hengest, I would love to shave my head! But, my girl thinks I look too scary with a shaved head (I had it shaved a while ago). So, it's either have a shaved head and get no play, or let my hair grow and get a lot play.

In any self-defense training, you should act (like Kris is saying), like you are in a normal situation, or at least give that impression. We move our feet into a read position, but we just don't bring our hands up until necessary.

We used to do something interesting in a BJJ school I went to for a while. If you were in a somewhat threatening situation, you clasped your hands together right in front of your chest. It looks normal enough, but you are prepared to easily bring your hands up to protect your face, and your arms are already in place to protect your body.
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Hengest

quote:

If you were in a somewhat threatening situation, you clasped your hands together right in front of your chest. It looks normal enough, but you are prepared to easily bring your hands up to protect your face, and your arms are already in place to protect your body.



That sounds cool. The British Combat Association teach a position called the fence (their chief instructor, Geoff Thompson, wrote a book on it called, unsurprisingly, The Fence ). It works along similar lines. Your feet are positioned at a 45 degree angle to the other guy, while your hands are loosely extended at about midsection level with hands open in a kind of "I don't want any trouble mate" pose. It's great for judging distance for that first strike and your hands are already in a good position to launch a punch or slap.

Another similar stance I've seen is taught on some bodyguard courses. I can't remember what it's called, but the arms are loosely folded across the chest, with one hand raised to your chin, so you look like your pondering what the other guy has to stay. It keeps your hands high and well positioned for defence without it looking like you're going to do anything. (NB: Shortly after posting this, I was reading an article on the Charles Nelson Self-defence System, which describes the exact same stance; they call it the "Jack Benny" stance. The full article is at: [url http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest_writers/Lee%20Morrison/Guest_Writers_Lee_Morrison_page6.htm[/url  )
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Tae Kwon Do Tiger
i prefer the back stance because it is the best stance for my favorite kicks and my teacher says i am really good with that stance
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jlambvo
One of the 'stances' in budo taijutsu is "shizen no kamae" or natural posture... which is pretty much just standing normally with hands at your sides. All five of our "sanshin" solo kata, and many (if not all) of the techniques we practice either start from shizen or can start from shizen. Shinden Fudo Ryu, which is largely a daken taijutsu/boxing school only uses shizen.

At my dojo we also explore how many of the other 'traditional' kamea can be taken in ways that look like very normal, everyday reaction stances. Jumonji no kamae, where the arms are held in an "x" or Japanese symbol for 10 (ju), and sounds much like that bodyguard stance, can be taken in a way that looks like you are cowering. if you bring your hands up, palm out, in a 'look man just leave me alone' kind of posture... that is much like another of our kamae, etc.

---

This topic is a good example of how many of us can get caught up in "dojo syndrome." Practicing any specific technique, we both know what is going to happen and pretty much how the other person is going to move. What is just as important as training from natural stances is training with a natural mind. I constantly upset myself when I am taken off guard by sudden things in my everyday life, things that I would easily see in a dojo setting.
Thus I have made it a point to train my awareness and reactions.

But something of a quandary to me has been... do I conduct my everyday life as if I am in a dojo, or pursue my training with the mind that I have in my everyday life? I lean more toward the latter... you should be able to defend yourself even in your most relaxed, upset, unaware and vulnerable circumstances. If there's someone waiting for me when I go to my kitchen for a midnight snack, I should be able to react effectively.

I would like to share a quote of o'sensei Takamatsu:

"No one possesses the knowledge concerning the events of tomorrow. This means that we do not know when our life will cease. However, you should never be surprised by any kind of happening. Whether a change in the cosmic process occurs, a cutting action is attempted by an opponent or natural catastrophes take place, you should never feel such a thing as surprise. This is the spirit of Banpen Fugyo."
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TheSwarm
I use many stances when sparring

my favourite stance is a widened and lowered han zen kutsadachi (short fighting stance)
but I use anything from nekoashidachi ( cat stance) to fake or to kick repeatedly, kokutsadachi (back leaning) to fight defensively and hold ground
i never use sanchin dachi, rarely use zenkutsadachi unless against someone short, same for horse and sumo those stances are kinda begging someone to play testicle golf
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aldarianraider
I believe that all stances are effective in some way or another. It really just depends on the tye of situation that you are in. For general purposes, a "standard" "L" stance or back stance works pretty well, but if you are in an enclosed area, a cat stance would be a little more appropriate. It also depends on your choice of style preference. Some stances work much better with one imparticular art better than another may be. You just gotta work with the situation at hand. There isn't really a "best stance" but for most purposes as I stated before, an "L" stance or back stance usually works out because from there you can easily go into another stance if need be. It's more versitile, basicaly.
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setsu nin to
The stance what I use depend on what style I practice at that time, but for self defense I dont like to use any special stance. I am just standing like I am on street, because I dont walk on street in Grappling or Muay Thai stance.
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jlambvo
Although it would be funny if we all did...
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dcohen
Haha, we'd all look like power rangers. Ever seen them walk?

I don't train with stances, beacuse basically, only a very small number of fights break out from the front. I'm not talking about schoolyard bully type crap, but muggings, attempted combat throws from behind, rape, etc. You can count on not getting a chance to be in some kind of pre-thought-out stance when these kinds of things happen. Working from sucker punches from behind is a nice way of testing your combat readiness, if that's what you're going for.

My basic stances are the positions I will most likely be in if I am attacked. Standing up, walking, bending down, crouching, lying down with someone starting to pummel your face (recovery from a tackle, etc). If I know something is coming and can see it, I NEVER focus on it (peripheral vision is hardwired to relflexes, and doesn't let that "oh shiznit!" crap happen when you see something coming towards you). The position I'll use them will most likely be like "the fence," earlier described - hands in a close-to-"hands up!" position, non confrontational, just keeping movement and relaxation. Breathe naturally, and don't focus directly on the threat or you won't see anything else.

The stance looks funny when you're kind of dancing around a threat, smiling and talking, and it's good for liablity issues, because witnesses will have seen you in a totally non-confrontational posture. The hands are good for accepting punches and stuff as well, a very good position to be in.

A good way to train the "being ready" is simply through recovery from headshots, body shots, etc. Starting out from a position of total disadvantage, after being punched, tackled onto the ground from behind. You can't seriously pretend to train for real life unless you've seen what happens in real life, and train without counting on any pie-in-the-sky luck. The truth is, you're not gonna see most of it coming. Most fights on the street are less than 8 or so seconds long. We have enough prison guards and ex militaristic types to see a LOT of dirty knife fighting tricks, etc. You'd be surprised at the weapons people come up with when they're jailed...And personally, I don't want to walk around like a power ranger .

Hope that helps,

-David
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setsu nin to
Distance is very inportant. But in my opinion it depende on anemy and tactic that we will use. Sometimes is better to go in Grrapling stance, and sometimes is better to go in Muay Thai stance, for exemple.
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Burnout
lol all this talk of training your reactions reminds me when awhile ago my friend took it to be his duty to 'help' my reactions by randomly (and I mean that in the truest sense of the word) attacking me whatever we were doing at first I took a lot of blows to the solar plexus and in the stomach etc but after awhile I started being able to block his attacks after being in a normal stance (just standing around) also I have found the my general reaction speed has gone e.g. now when I drop things I find that my hands are automaticaly catching them (I used to be quite clumsy) so I think that (like many others think) you should ask your friends to try to catch you unawares with an attack no matter what you are doing (well maybe when you arent on the toilet ) I have a lot to thank to my mate bunsi for getting my reactions up yes... thanks is in order alright...
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Hengest


quote:

awhile ago my friend took it to be his duty to 'help' my reactions by randomly (and I mean that in the truest sense of the word) attacking me whatever we were doing at first I took a lot of blows to the solar plexus and in the stomach etc



Sounds like The Pink Panther ! "Not now Kato!!"
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Fenix
what's the difference between the muay thai stance and the kickboxing stance, is the muay thai stance the one where most of the weight is on the back leg, and the front leg is just touching the groud with the ball of the foot? (don't laugh at me if I'm wrong, I've just seen it on a video game)
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nEo-Wolf
Usually Kickboxing (Being a Kickboxer) but it may change when it comes to a street fight as anything can happen...
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NeoGilgamesh
quote:

Originally posted by Hengest

Doesn't anyone else here train to throw techniques from a normal standing position, or something similar?



When I train reality defence on a heavybag, one of the drills concists of me standing a a normal stance.(For me a normal stance is quite similar to a boxers stance, cause It's the stance I'm most comfortable with whatever I may be doing.) I have my hands close to my waist and try to be as relaxed as possible. Every now and then I explode with a left hook or if I'm close enough, an elbow. I try not to do every 10 seconds, rather I try to "surprise myself".

What I mean with "surprising myself" is that when I for example hear the neighbour yelling, or someone banging a hammer, THAT'S when I punch. Mostly I do this to build instinct. You could compare it to if a guy in a bar suddenly would smash the bottle he's holding and come at me. I guess you could call it a reaction drill.
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The BadBoy
Good Description of the fence

"Geoff Thompson's Three Second Fighting

by Lito Angeles

THREE - SECOND FIGHTING: The Five Responses Strategy and Fence Tactic For Real-World self-defence Against the Gratuitous Aggressor

By Lito Angeles

"The saddest truth you will ever hear is that violence can only be stopped by greater violence, whether it is on a school playground where the bully dishes out misery on those weaker than himself or on the bloodied battlefields of war.... Violence is very wrong, but sometimes it is necessary in the interests of peace." So says Geoff Thompson, the renowned self-defence instructor and legendary ex-bouncer from Great Britain who was undefeated in over 300 fights during a nine plus year period "on the door" at some of England's most notorious night clubs. Through those experiences, he learned that controlling fear along with attacking first, when all other options have failed, are the keys to victory in real-world street fights.

In my previous article on Thompson (Black Belt, August 1998), I wrote about his fear adrenal map which detailed the various disguises of fear in combat. In this one, I will cover the five responses strategy and fence tactic that Thompson advocates for self defence against a gratuitous aggressor. A gratuitous aggressor in this case is someone who instigates an ego-based confrontation stemming from accidental or incidental situations such as looking at him the "wrong" way, bumping into him, being involved in a traffic collision with him, inadvertently cutting him off in traffic, swiping a parking space from him, etc. As I delineate the five responses, I am going to detail Thompson's fence tactic and the appropriate counter ensures in dealing with this type of adversary.

Before a person can establish effective strategies and tactics for self defence, he must first examine and understand the "battlefield" involved. With this in mind, Thompson has identified three kinds of fights: match fighting, ambush fighting, and three-second fighting. A match fight is any kind of fight, be it street or sport, with or without rules, where there is tacit or mutual consent or knowledge between the combatants. In this kind of fight the six S' - skill, size, strength, speed, stamina and py(s)che decide the outcome. On the other hand, an ambush fight is a blind-sided surprise attack in which the person (victim) is caught completely unaware and off-guard. A three-second fight is a real world street fight involving the 3 Cs - confrontation, conflict, and combat. The use of deception and surprise are the cornerstones of this kind of fight. With the volatile situation unresolved, deceptive dialogue is employed as a distraction followed shortly by a pre-emptive attack which often decides the outcome immediately. Thompson coined this kind of fight as three-second fighting because it is usually over within that time frame.

Now that the real-world "battlefield" has been clearly established, let's proceed to the five responses strategy. Thompson says that if you are dealing with a gratuitous aggressor due to an inadvertent or accidental situation, your first response should be to avoid him anyway you can. You do this through awareness and assessment of your adversary, environment, and surroundings. However, if you cannot avoid him and are confronted, Thompson says your second response should be to escape in whatever manner possible. This can usually be accomplished by quickly assessing the situation and utilising diversionary tactics to create an opening for a getaway. If for some reason escaping is impossible, Thompson says your third response should be verbal dissuasion, which means using submissive dialogue to de-escalate the aggressor's hostility. Thompson considers this stage the pivotal period in a confrontation. When it gets to this point against a gratuitous aggressor, it is time to utilise the 'fence" tactic.

The fence is the term Thompson came up with to describe his pre-fight physical tactic. It consists of utilising the hands (usually the lead hand, but can be the rear one or both) in a non-aggressive manner as a physical barrier between you and your adversary. Since most ego-based confrontations start at what Thompson calls conversation range (i.e. talking distance - approximately 18 inches), the fence, your lead hand, serves to maintain a safe gap just long enough for you to escape, talk down the situation, or pre-emptively attack the aggressor. Placed correctly, the lead hand will not only maintain a safe gap, but will also nullify your aggressor's weapons (e.g. punches, elbows, headbutts, and knees). Though he may not realise it on a conscious level, your adversary will instinctively know that until the fence has been removed or bypassed, his techniques have no clear way of getting through.

Besides serving as a physical barrier, the fence has three other functions. The first is what Thompson calls the sensory tentacle. The lead hand acts as a sensor to your aggressor's intentions. He should not touch the fence unless he makes a forward movement to bridge the gap. Any forward movement should be checked by the lead hand to maintain a safe gap because it is a subliminal precursor to an attack. In Thompson's opinion, the maximum number of times an aggressor should touch your fence is twice. If you don't pre-emptively attack him at that point, he will soon be attacking you or it might end up turning into a matchfighting situation. The next function of the fence is as a range finder. The lead hand allows you to judge the exact distance for an accurate pre-emptive strike. The last function of the fence is to act as a physical action trigger. The touching of the lead hand by the aggressor can serve to mentally initiate (i.e. solidifying your decision to attack) then physically initiate (i.e. using the touch as a "springboard" to launch your strike) your pre-emptive attack.

Returning to Thompson's third response - verbal dissuasion, he specifically recommends subtly controlling the aggressor with the fence and using dissuasive dialogue for "loopholing." "Loopholing" is giving your adversary an honourable way out of the situation so that he doesn't lose "face". If your dissuasive dialogue doesn't de-escalate the volatile situation then Thompson says the fourth response - posturing can be employed. This is psyching out the aggressor with extremely aggressive physical gestures and verbal reprimands. Thompson says you can bypass this response and employ the fifth response, pre-emptive attack if you so desire. However, he strongly advocates the use of posturing because he believes that physical violence should be the absolute last option you have to resort to. Furthermore, he feels that it's a good tactic for people who cannot bring themselves to pre-emptively attack their adversary. This is his preferred tactic in handling a gratuitous aggressor. Since Thompson places a great deal of importance on this response, let's examine it in more detail.

Posturing should be employed when the situation has reached an impasse and you think it is going to become physical. So when the aggressor is trying to bridge the gap and take down your fence, you must take the fence to a conscious level by shoving your adversary with your lead hand and simultaneously stepping back (if you have the space to do so) to create a big gap, approximately five feet would be good, between you and him. The purpose of this shove is to trigger an adrenaline release in your adversary making him feel the urge to run away (i.e. the "flight" response. Reinforce your shove with a very aggressive verbal lashing like, "stay there, don't ****ing move!" The use of expletives adds intent and induces more fear in your adversary. Once you have created the gap follow it up with "ballooning." This is done by aggressively pacing side to side, back and forth without taking your eyes off the aggressor, again reinforcing this with verbal reprimands. You should also support your ballooning with finger pointing. This adds more force and credibility to your 'posturing." This tactic very often causes what Thompson likes to call the "sticky feet syndrome." This occurs when on one hand, your adversary wants to move forward because of peer pressure to fight, then on the other hand, his body lurches forward but his feet stay stuck firmly on the ground because his natural fear instinct is telling him to run away. Even if he doesn't run away, the fact that he feels like doing so will create more confusion and self-doubt, triggering more adrenaline, which causes a downward spiral to capitulation. Thompson recommends that you take advantage of your adversary's confusion and make your getaway as soon as possible.

There are two problems associated with posturing that Thompson says you should be aware of. One, you give up the element of deception and two, the element of surprise, should you decide to attack or if your adversary isn't psyched out by this tactic. The confrontation then becomes a match fighting situation which will most likely be decided by the six S' - skill, size, strength, speed, stamina and py(s)che.

Thompson says the winner and loser in most street confrontations is usually determined during the verbal dissuasion/posturing period (i.e. the pre-fight stage). He says that if this period is mismanaged, it will quickly become a match fight, which goes into a clinching struggle then to ground fighting. This is not a good place to be unless you are highly skilled and fighting with one unskilled or not-so-skilled adversary who is on the ground with you, hopefully without a knife on him or friends in the vicinity. So if verbal dissuasion is failing and you decide to bypass posturing, Thompson says that your fifth and final response against a gratuitous aggressor is a pre-emptive attack. Before I get into the details of this response, I would first like to cover what Thompson calls the "rituals of violence." These rituals are the precursors to an attack and if you can identify them, you can stop your adversary's imminent attack with a pre-emptive attack of your own. Thompson says that it is crucial to thoroughly understand these rituals in order to properly employ a pre-emptive attack response.

The "rituals of violence" are the bodily signs and verbal cues that a gratuitous aggressor will telegraph preceding an attack. These rituals are embodied in what Thompson calls the "four D's" of entrapment: dialogue, deception, distraction, and destruction. Thompson says that prior to his attack, your adversary's dialogue will probably be aggressive. If you happen to be dealing with a seasoned street fighter, the dialogue will be used to deceive and distract you before he destroys you. In terms of bodily signs, Thompson says the gratuitous aggressor will be displaying some or all of the following characteristics: aggressive staring with the eyes bulging, chest and lats expanding, arms splaying, fingers beckoning, head nodding, neck pecking, eyebrows dropping, standing up in a fighting position, and distance close-down. In regards to verbal cues, Thompson says that words like "yeah", "and", or "so" are often said just before an attack. He says the use of single syllable words are a sure bet that the dialogue is ending and the attack is coming soon.

Going back to the final response, if you have exhausted all other options and decide that a pre-emptive attack is necessary, then Thompson suggests doing so off the fence with your most powerful strike. Unless you are very experienced, he says anything less is the quickest way to the graveyard; so either attack all out or do not attack at all.

Looking at the specifics of attacking off the fence starting with stances, Thompson has three fence positions he likes to utilise: the pleading fence, the staggered fence, and the exclamation fence. All three positions have the same feet placement: a compact 45degree angled stance with the dominant-side back. The difference between them lies in the placement of the hands.

In the pleading fence, both hands are placed in front of you, palms facing the aggressor several inches away from him. Thompson likes this fence because it looks submissive but presents a solid physical barrier that keeps a safe gap between you and your adversary. It also positions the fingers nicely for an eye attack should it be needed.

With the staggered fence, the palms are again facing forward but with the hands staggered by about one foot. Thompson says the hand in back would be the ideal one to use for attack, though the lead hand is also perfectly placed for an eye attack.

Finally, in the exclamation fence, the palms are facing upward expressing exclamation with the lead hand pushed forward as a fence and the rear hand cocked to strike.

The next component for effectively attacking off the fence deals with the verbal action trigger. Thompson says a verbal action trigger is a word or sentence that you can use to initiate your attack. He says that when you are facing an intimidating aggressor it is very difficult to know exactly when to initiate your attack. A verbal action trigger will take away your indecisiveness and automatically trigger your attack. Thompson says that you should use an out-of-context question such as, "Is your mom's name, Elsie?" as opposed to a flat statement, because along with triggering action, it will serve to switch off your adversary's adrenaline and engage his brain in thought. This question also serves as a subliminal intimation to your adversary that you wish to extend the conversation thereby deceiving him even more. The final element for this response is the attack itself Thompson says that the attack is your chosen main artillery technique. He recommends that you perfect one or two powerful hand techniques from punching range (i.e. conversation range) because that is the distance most often gravitated to in real street confrontations. Thompson says that there is little point in manufacturing another range when the one you are already in, or most likely to be in, is the most clinical one anyway. From this range, he says it takes just a split second to finish a fight with one good hand technique. Many inexperienced martial artists will probably dispute this; however, Thompson had over 50 one-punch . knockouts in his career as a bouncer. He says that with the right information and loads of courage, the one-punch knockout is very attainable.

In the vast majority of confrontations that Thompson has been involved in, his main artillery technique was either a right cross or a right hook executed off the rear side and in a few situations, a forward head butt. These three along with the left hook are the techniques he recommends to choose from and develop. As a reminder, Thompson suggests picking one or two of these techniques and practising them to perfection. You should have supreme confidence with your main artillery.

As you may have noticed, Thompson's personal main artillery techniques (the right cross and right hook) come off the rear-side. He prefers this because it allows him to put total body torque behind a punch for maximum power (the exception is the lead hook). Now some of you may think that punching from the rear-side is slower and more telegraphic than punching from the lead-side. Thompson says that the time difference between the two is negligible; it is a matter of a millisecond difference. He adds that speed is not the major factor to knocking an adversary out anyway; accuracy is. A speedy attack that is not accurate is unlikely to knockout an adversary. In regards to being more telegraphic, Thompson says that is nullified with the other main factor - deception. He mentioned that many of his former colleagues were slow, rear-side punchers, but got knockouts all the time because they were so good at engaging an adversary's mind before attacking and were very accurate to boot. When the mind is engaged, time stands still, and for however long it is still, your attack needs only to be as quick as that. Furthermore, your adversary will be experiencing tunnel vision as a by-product of adrenaline. This means that you can strike without him seeing it.

Now that we have examined each component of attacking off the fence separately, let's put it all together into a cohesive tactic. Thompson refers to this fifth and final response as the "sniper option." Before I go on, Thompson wants to make it clearly understood that this response should only be utilised after all the others have been exhausted. He emphasises that this should be the last option possible. With that said, let's imagine you're in a volatile situation with a gratuitous aggressor. You have attempted to avoid, escape, dissuade to no avail and you're not comfortable or confident enough to use posturing. You have repeatedly apologised, back-pedalled, and offered to make amends, but the aggressor is still hostile with bad intentions. At this point, Thompson says you have established the moral and legal justification to neutralise the threat at hand. This means it is time to switch on your "killer instinct" and utilise the sniper option.

Thompson says, first of all, you should not allow the aggressor to touch your fence more than two times. Each time he does, the situation worsens because at some point in the immediate future he will pre-emptively attack you. So you must beat him to it or else suffer the consequences - defeat, possibly with serious bodily injury or death.

Once the situation has gotten to the point where the sniper option is your last option, Thompson says that you may only have one chance to utilise it. Once the opportunity is gone, it will never present itself again. In that case, you will be attacked first and most likely be beaten to a pulp. So he says it's imperative that your pre-emptive attack be a destroying technique that hits your opponent like a cannonball. Anything less and you'll be in a match fight. Having said that, here's how to employ Thompson's sniper option. First, line up your adversary using the fence to control the range and physically trigger your attack. Second, look at the designated target. For Thompson, that would be the jaw, which he considers the ultimate target. Third, mentally disarm him and engage his mind by using your verbal action trigger. Fourth, strike accurately through the target with your main artillery technique. For Thompson, that would be a right cross or a right hook. For maximum effect, launch your pre-emptive attack with total commitment immediately after your trigger question. Fifth, it is Thompson's recommendation that you immediately escape. This might not be how you see fighting, but it is a good self-defence strategy: hit and run. He says the only time you need to finish off an adversary is when he is still an immediate threat; if he is not, then there is no need to follow up. Thompson says that he has seen too many people go for a finish when it was not necessary and as a consequence, lose because their adversaries grabbed them. So use the distraction of your attack to get away safely.

If by some chance your pre-emptive attack fails (perhaps due to an inaccurate strike or an opponent with a granite jaw) and you cannot escape safely, Thompson says it's time to automatically employ your "support system." The support system, as he refers to it, consists of every concept and technique you've ever 1eatned and realistically applied in training. It serves as the back-up arsenal when the main artillery fails or is not an option. It is utilised immediately as a follow-up in which you spontaneously attack your adversary with a barrage of techniques that flow with the moment until he is incapacitated enough for you to get away safely.

Many of you may be concerned about the legal implications of pre-emptively attacking a gratuitous aggressor for self-defence; so let's address this issue with some general legal guidelines to ensure your general compliance with the law. First, as a rule of thumb, the right to self-defence by pre-emptive attack is permissible only when the defender reasonably believes that he is in apparent danger and an attack by the aggressor is imminent. It is essential that the defender be without fault himself in the situation. Understand that the relative size, strength, weight, age, and demeanour of the combatants are some of the factors considered in determining the reasonableness of this belief .

Second, the degree of force a defender may use in self-defence must be roughly equivalent to the perceived danger he is in. In other words, the defender should only use enough force which he honestly and reasonably believes to be necessary to ensure his own safety. Note that the presence of a weapon, multiple aggressors, and a disparity in size, strength, weight, and age are a few of the factors taken into consideration when gauging what degree of force is reasonable. Finally, the right to self-defence generally ends once the immediate threat no longer exists.

Ethically and legally, Thompson's strategy and tactics tie in nicely with these three points. He believes in avoiding, escaping, and verbally dissuading a gratuitous aggressor before resorting to a physical response to resolve a hostile conflict. He also advocates the use of non-lethal force in subduing an adversary unless the situation is life threatening. Furthermore, he strongly discourages finishing off an opponent who is no longer an immediate threat. In fact, he highly recommends escaping to a safe location immediately after the first strike connects to ensure personal safety and prevent the situation from getting worse.

The three points I outlined are by no means a thorough discourse on the laws pertaining to self-defence; far from it. Once again, they are just general legal guidelines intended to make you more aware of the legal implications of self-defence and to keep you in general compliance with the law.

Since laws vary from state to state, I recommend that you consult a competent attorney in your area. He/she can give you a more thorough understanding of the law, specific advice, and clarify statutes and decisions relating to self-defence issues. If necessary, you will also have someone to call on to defend you in court.

Specifically addressing, Thompson's recommendation to ' hit and run", he says or once you have struck your adversary, you should immediately escape from the danger zone and run to a safe area for a number of reasons. One, if your adversary is not sufficiently stunned, he will recover in a few seconds and the situation will turn into a match fight with the possibility of serious bodily injury or worse inflicted on one or both of you. Two, your adversary might have a weapon on him or near him to use against you. Even if he doesn't, if you hang around too long, he may obtain one and use it against you. Three, he may have friends at the location who might come to his aid and gang up on you. If necessary, once you are at a safe location, you can call the paramedics if you are concerned about the welfare of your adversary and notify the police to report the incident.

As you have just read, Thompson has a game plan based on a pre-determined strategy executed with economical tactics. He says that it is essential to have a proactive plan of action because it allow you to respond decisively rather than react involuntarily to a hostile threat. Accordingly, Thompson states that the methods of action utilised in this strategy should be basic and small in number for it to be effective. He believes that one technique mastered is better than one hundred sampled. His point here is that when a pressure-filled confrontation becomes "live", if you have too many techniques to choose from, you will get a mental logjam and be defeated while in the process of selecting the right technique to employ.

"Attack is the secret to defence. Defence is the planning of an attack." Sun Tzu wrote these words more than 25 centuries ago and they still hold true today. If you were perceptive, you probably noticed the absence of defensive techniques in Thompson's game plan. Undefeated in over 300 street fights, he has never blocked, jammed, parried, evaded, or intercepted an attack. When dissuasive or posturing tactics were failing and he was sure that his adversary was about to attack, Thompson always attacked first and continued attacking until his adversary was neutralised. This is how he defeated many opponents that were bigger and/or more skilled than him. Otherwise, if these were match fights, Thompson says many of them may have beaten him. Interestingly enough, none of his opponents ever came back for a rematch.

Thompson is often told by inexperienced and idealistic martial artists that when facing a gratuitous aggressor, the defender should wait until the aggressor initiates an attack before spontaneously defending himself and countering back. Thompson says that this is too late. In real-world street fights, defensive and counterattacking tactics just don't work. Action is faster than reaction especially when you're standing just one to two feet away from each other and can't predict how, when, or where your adversary is going to attack. Pairing that fact with the elements of deception and surprise, if your adversary attacks you first, your chances of blocking, jamming, parrying, evading, or intercepting his attack are slim to none. Thompson says that unless you are extremely skilled and pressure-tested, your reaction to a pre-emptive attack will most likely be a negative one with pain, confusion, and defeat ensuing.

Now if you are ambushed and the first you know of the situation is the attack itself, Thompson says that spontaneous reaction is not only a sound concept but the only concept you have. However, by being constantly aware of your surroundings, getting ambushed should be difficult. That means most likely your adversary's attack will come from the front usually preceded by deceptive dialogue. Thompson says this allows you to take the initiative and control the situation with the fence. He states that this is where knowledge of a gratuitous aggressor's rituals of violence and physical/verbal precursors to attack are imperative. By understanding these signs and cues, you will be able to see exactly when your adversary intends to initiate his attack, which allows you to escape and if not possible, pre-emptively attack him first. Thompson says the aggressor's precursory movements will almost give you a countdown to his physical attack.

Sir Winston Churchill once said, "many people stumble upon the truth and then get back up and wander off as though nothing happened." In this article, I've delineated Thompson's innovative strategy and tactics as thoroughly but concisely as possible with the hopes that it stimulates and educates fellow martial artists on the realities of real world self-defence. However, I'm concerned that Thompson's message and methods may be too hard to accept because it will force many people to see how far astray they've become and it might mean too many changes for them to make. A sad fact is that the truth is often too simple to appreciate and at face value, this is why many people fail to recognise the potency in Thompson's methods. Nevertheless, Thompson's methods have been successfully street-proven countless number of times. His strategy and tactics unquestionably give the average person the functional ability to realistically defend himself against a gratuitous aggressor who may be bigger, faster, stronger, and more skilled. I've specifically applied Thompson's strategy and tactics against this type of opponent because he is the most common adversary that a man might encounter on the "street." However, with slight modifications, Thompson's methods can be adapted for either sex against any other type of adversary (e.g. robber, rapist, murderer).

In conclusion, avoiding a physical conflict should be your number one priority for self-defence. Thompson strongly believes that a person should sincerely employ all non violent ways and means to resolve a conflict before resorting to a physical response. However, when all these options fail, the fence tactic is a highly functional way of controlling a hostile adversary. When no other recourse is possible, it is the perfect platform to "strike first, strike fast, strike hard, strike last" to neutralise the threat and end the conflict.

To contact Geoff Thompson, write P.O. Box 307, Coventry CV3 2YP, West Midlands, United Kingdom or visit his website at www.geoffthompson.com. ABOUT THE A UTHOR: Lito Angeles is a Southern California-based police officer and martial arts instructor. "
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Crimpolene
At the hapkido school where I train, we do the vast majority of our striking and kicking drills (defense techniques for that matter) are done from a "neutral stance", which is the way you stand in real life. This is based on the assumption that, if you have time to adopt a fighting stance, is probably a fight that can be avoided. And even if you think that a fight is coming, a fighting stance will only signal that you have some skills, which is something that will be noted by any witnesses (should there be legal problems). Also, as was already mentioned, neutral stances take advantage of deception. If I do use a stance, however, I go for a modified back stance.
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Blade
Wing-Chun stance,
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Quick fight or Slow?
Original Poster: Michael M.
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 10-09-2004, 18:50

Orginal Post: Michael M.: I was thinking of this question recently. After seeing many fights, and just about all of them being very quick in which both sides are the aggressors, I thought of it. In most fights, is it best to be defensive and then strike when a good hit can be made, or is is best to attack the whole time?
For the speed in which these fights tend to happen, it seems that it would be difficult to avoid getting injured when being defensive or aggressive.
What are your thoughts on it?

Creating your own system?"
Original Poster: Kooler
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 26-08-2004, 13:39

Orginal Post: Kooler: 654.1



"What are some of the pitfalls of combining systems, or creating your own system?"

Having a lack of functional principles that can be applied universally to any threat variable. While individuals may claim their "principles" are sound, they are in fact merely 'techniques' derived from an successful, personal experience which only leads to an overconfidence regarding the incident the individual was involved in. Because one is successful (or lucky) in a confrontation, that does not mean it was truly the proper or correct course of action to take.

What did the fighter do right, and more importantly, what did he do wrong? Most practitioners will never ask themselves the latter part to that question, "What did he do wrong?" Sure he beat his attacker/s, but what did he do wrong? That's the key folks. You may be saying, "He survived didn't he? He defeated the other guy right? So what's the big deal?" Well, it is a big deal if you want to pass relevant knowledge on to others, or perhaps survive another such assault in the future.

Let us take a firearm disarmament scenario and a fictional character named 'Joe' as an example. Joe is a multi-level black belt in [pick your art . One night while withdrawing money from a ATM, Joe is robbed at gunpoint. The attacker comes up behind to Joe's left side and has what Joe can only assume is a gun being jabbed into his left-backside. Partly out of fright and excitement, Joe rotates and knocks aside the thug's arm wielding the firearm and piston punches him flush to the face crumpling the attackers nose. Joe follows up with a blade-edged stomp to his attackers knee driving him down. Joe seeing his attacker momentarily stunned and in a extreme amount of pain, decides he's had enough and runs in the other direction to safety.

The following week, Joe shares this account with his fellow practitioners at the local dojo and demonstrates how he removed himself from danger with his "gun-defense."

Now, let's freeze this moment in time. Many people will look at this nonchalantly and perhaps draw the conclusion this was a correct course of action on Joe's part. However, when you start weighing the variables involved as I would, you begin to see some very disturbing aspects to Joe's reaction. Primarily, a lack of sciences. It is because Joe's situation had a favorable outcome that he will never understand what he did wrong and how passing this experienced-based knowledge onto others will in turn get them killed. There are very exact sciences and protocols involved with firearm disarmament you cannot violate if you do not want to chance getting yourself or others around you killed. This pretty much applies to every aspect of combat; empty hand, edged & impact weaponry, "ground fighting," etc.

If you want to create a style for sport where there are rules, go for it. However, if you want to dominate the variables, where your life or the lives of your loved ones is literally on the line, I wouldn't do it. Unless you can address the aforementioned problem, you'll never create a functional fighting system, much less one that endures.

"Is there any "perfect" style?"

Let us say for the sake of argument there is, it still wouldn't mean a thing. Why? Because even if you had the "perfect" style, you are a human being and human beings are prone to making mistakes. That is just our nature. Besides, perfection is such a relative term, what may perfectly suit your needs may in fact be wholly inadequate for another.

As for style, style by definition is idiomatic, a syntax devoid of scientific merit or justification and predicated solely on the preference of the individual.

please help me find a school!
Original Poster: purerealm
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 12-07-2004, 06:09

Orginal Post: purerealm: im going to college in santa barbara, CA next quarter and I'm trying to find some form of self-defense or martial arts that i could learn.

so far all searches come up with nothing, with the nearest place being in LA, which is more than an hour away.

I'm interested in anything effective.
Muay thai, escrima, krav maga, anything if you think its worth my money on

thanks

Recommended Articles
Original Poster: MrApollinax
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 02-04-2004, 03:58

Orginal Post: MrApollinax: I thought I'd start a thread to reference good articles to read. Here is one that has a very level headed approach to the whole Sport Vs Street debate:

Fighting or Playing

Is Sparring necessary?: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 26-03-2004, 14:39

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Is Sparring necessary?

Is sparring necessary to be a profficient martial artist?
Yes 92% [ 38  
No 7% [ 3  
Total Votes : 41
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UK Scrapper
I am just curious if it is possible to be a proficient martial artist without sparring. I have come across a martial art in my local area which is an offshoot of TKD whose philosophy is against sparring as it develops bad habits for a real fight.
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BLACK PANTA
You should only be allowed to spar if you know how and usually with an instrucor present. I can understand how the view may be made that sparrin can cause bad habits, because some people spar wrong and use bad forms and technique. With an istrucor present he can show you what you did wrong and what you could've done differently. You should know the basic punches, kicks and blocks (at least) of you paticular art before you spar.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
how does sparring (controled fighting) develop bad habits for fighting? Tell your friend he's in need of an attitude adjustment.
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jerbo8
if you spar right then you wont develop bad habits. sparring is good but one time i got my but kicked by someone who hasnt sparred but once in their life and only practiced kata. im a pretty good fighter but i just could not get a hit in so i would say it is possible to be good without sparring but sparring is very important.
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-=KING UMY=-
You wont progress as a fighter by hitting a bag and punching the air or the pads.

You will never learn the bad habits you have unless you spar, and the idea that sparring gives you bad habits is just daft, tha aim of sparring is to take the techniques you have learnt and apply them on a resisting opponent to help decide what you like and dislike and to get an idea of what works for you.
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8LimbsScientist
Sparring is the only way you can acquire the timing and the knowledge of WHEN to use the techniques you've used. You need sparring in order to become a better fighter.
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paa069
When sparring, you tend to back up and not go full contact as if you would in a street fight. If you martial art is based on sparring, then i guess you could classify it as a sport martial art, and that is fine. Sparring is not necessary. Many techniques taught in most martial arts tend to go against the sparring rules, due to their level of dangerousness. Most of these techniques can be performed on one another, but with resistance and going lightly. In real life, you know you have the ability and will use it. To be good at fighting in real life you shouldnt have to use sparring and your ability to be good at it. Sparring is different then a real life fight. In a real life fight, you tend to go at one another like mad, and in sparring you tend to go for one another, and then back up, then do that over and over. In real life there is no backing up. In real life there is much more intensity and adrenaline running through your body. This is why i say that you do not need sparring to be a profficient martial artist.
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setsu nin to
In my opinion it depende on what do you whant from martial arts.

Some people dont whant selfdefense from martial arts, sam as its not important to them is some technique efficant or not. They are just interesting that they do some technique strict by the rules and that it look nice. Some people practice martial arts just becouse art, becouse they like how it looks like...
I know man who is in Aikido for years, and if you ask him why he practice it he will say "I like how it looks like and that I am able to do that". Also he practice it becouse of fitness.
So for someone like him there is realy not need for sparing.

But if you practice martial arts becouse of selfdefense, fight, competitions... So if you have t prepare yourself for combat than you need sparings.
At least you need sparing just to see whats the feeling when someone punch and kick you and when you do it same to someone else, and to feel fight. Well it wont be teal fight, so you whant feel real fight in sparing but its better than nothing.

Sparing is usefull, but not to much of it. Every punch or kick will make some injuri, in 95% of that sparring punchs and kicks you even wouldnt know that you are injured, but if you injured that way your sholder for example everyday for few years, there is big chance that you will have problem with that shoulder one day.
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MA dude
If you are looking for self defense sparring is defenitely one of the most important part of training. Even if you can not go full force punching all the time it is better than punching the air, besides that once in a while my school does full contact sparring and also you can always hit the bag full force. If you do not spar you will not get used to resistance and you will be suprised in real life. I would also suggest competing in full contact tournaments so you can go full force. Look at all these losses by people that never sparred before or has done minimal sparring to people that do tons of sparring and enter full contact sparring competetions. In Taiwan there is a bare knuckle full contact competetion hosted by the taiwan kung fu wushu association or something like that in which I competed in, there are ussually 1or2 people that never sparred or only did light sparring and they barely ever get past the first round. If I ended up with a person that did this then it was a lot easier than the other people. But the ones that sparred hard were a lot harder to beat, especially those bagua dudes, they always blind side me and knock me out
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8LimbsScientist
paa069

I'm afraid I'm going to have to completely disagree with you. If you can't spar you can't fight, and no martial art is made COMPLETELY of strikes you can't spar with. Besides, with padding you can spar just about anything full contact.

And also, the reason martial artists fight the way they do when sparring is because thats how you fight someone who knows what he is doing. If you have the opportunity get involved in one of the "fight night" contests at a local nightclub. You will get paired up with some joker at the club who will "go at you like mad" and you'll see how easy it is to knock them the f*** out. The way people spar is called cautious, and if you throw caution to the wind in a one on one fight with a skilled MAist you are toast.
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setsu nin to
Well I agree with 8LimbsScientist. You may always adapted rules in sparing. Limit rules in sparing, but dont limit techniques just to one style. If you practice Aikido for example dont use just Aikido techniques in sparing use Boxing for example techniques too.
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graham1
If anyone's training is for self-defence or fighting then sparring is a must. All sparring puts you under pressure to perform. A lot of people, especially those who have come into martial arts practice because of their feelings of insecurity, may be very reserved & shy about performing in public & sparring - especially in competitions - helps to take those feelings away.

Those feelings can literally be the death of you in a fighting/self-defence situation if you don't try to inure yourself to them as they may cause anyone to hold back, perhaps thinking about the consequences of what they might do to their opponent or what their opponent might do to them if they don't succeed, during which time their opponent has got on with the job & put them down.

If anyone starts with semi-contact sparring they will find that they are landing their punches & kicks, or making their throws, harder & harder, & being hit or thrown harder, over time. Amongst experienced practitioners this should not be such a problem, as if a confrontation dissolves into fighting they're going to get hit. It can, however, be very off-putting to less experienced people.

I think that everyone training for self-defence/fighting scenarios should progress in their sparring to the point where techniques are landed seriously, including the face & head as targets, at the least now & again, so that they can be reminded of what it is like to be in a fight, albeit in a controlled environment.
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kenshinsamuraimusashi
sparing or fighting is the only way to become good im martial arts. You can learn all the forms but when u acctually fight its different and a lot harder lol.
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jerbo8
quote:

Originally posted by kenshinsamuraimusashi
sparing or fighting is the only way to become good im martial arts. You can learn all the forms but when u acctually fight its different and a lot harder lol.




yes an actual encounter is alot different than doing a kata kata is a very important part of martial arts training so please dont insinuate that its useless because thats just plain false and people get the wrong idea.
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EvilScott
Jerbo, Jerbo, Jerbo...

A. PUNCTUATION...plz break your ramblings up into sentences

B. Back your ramblings with some kind of reasoning or keep them to yourself if you are just blindly faithful

C. Open your damn mind - every post I've seen of yours has been telling people things by shoving unbacked (often idiotic) ideas down their throats. Are you here to tell us how you do shiznit or learn something? Because from what I've heard of you I can sure do without your opinions.

Just my two cents. If you want to continue this start a thread in Keyboard Warriors so we don't clog this thread.
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jerbo8
ok sorry everybody i know i come of as being rude but i really am not trying to be, im thinking something in my head that is way different than what i come across as in words. i will try to be more polite from now on.
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zefff
Sparring with stick even if you just have helmet and gloves you can go all out like u wanna hurt the man bad, maybe once a week to let the welts heal

Its this sparring that teaches you things that nothing else can. Timing, distance, true strategy and deception. As well as efficiency and developing rock solid footwork and mobilty through extreme pressure testing that only sparring can give you. Sometimes you can get away with 90% in a drill or whatever but in hard sparring only 100% will stop u getting your head boxed!
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Ninja Kl0wn
quote:

Originally posted by UK Scrapper
I am just curious if it is possible to be a proficient martial artist without sparring.



NO . End of discussion.
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paa069
Ok 8LimbsScientist
Im going to have to disagree with you. Just think about what you said..Read your paragraph over a few times. Maybe you can see why i disagree with you. I feel that by typing what i disagree would be a waste, because most people wiill agree to what i said earlier. End of discussion.
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MA dude
quote:

Originally posted by paa069
Ok 8LimbsScientist
Im going to have to disagree with you. Just think about what you said..Read your paragraph over a few times. Maybe you can see why i disagree with you. I feel that by typing what i disagree would be a waste, because most people wiill agree to what i said earlier. End of discussion.


Everyone else said you need to spar to be able to fight but you said you didn't. How is that agreeing with you? I definitely have to agree with 8 limbs scientist. Yes sparring is not a street fight but if you can not spar I doubt you will be able to defend yourself, it is closest to the pressure testing you can get. Also with padding you can go full force but I would suggest entering a full contact competetion so you can try out your stuff full force.
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*Gong*Sao*
Paa069, sparring isn't necessarily supposed to be a real fight. It lets you ingrain the techniques and strategies you learn into your instincts so you'll use them if you have to without thinking.
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8LimbsScientist
paa069

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond to this. I already read your post, and I know what I posted...so what am I supposed to do, regurgitate the same post?

As Gong Sao said, sparring is a training tool, just like drills and shadowboxing. Sparring just happens to be an extremely necessary training tool.

Now when you DO get in a street fight, you will know WHEN to throw WHAT technique. You will also be experienced trying out your technique against a fully resisting opponent. Its amazing how different it is to try a technique with a training partner during a drill and then to try that same technique against a fully resisting partner who is fighting back. All of a sudden its a whole new ballgame.
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george stiles
the only way to become a proficient martial artist is through sparring. other wise it loses its martial aspect and becomes dance or body expression art
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The BadBoy
quote:

Originally posted by Ninja Kl0wn

NO . End of discussion.



Felt it had to be said again.
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HongKongDragon
quote:

Originally posted by george stiles
the only way to become a proficient martial artist is through sparring. other wise it loses its martial aspect and becomes dance or body expression art



That depends what style of martial art you studied. I have to agree sparring is important, but I have to disagree what you said about sparring is the martial aspect and the style will become like a dance (form/kata/sequence - is this what you mean?)

TMA view:
Form/Kata/Sequence - Whatever you like to call it depending on what style of TMA you do. Are very important, they are not dance or just a body expression art. These Sequence (I prefer to called it) teach you when to use which technique, where to strike, the breathing, the speed, and focus. This also teach you how to deal with multiple attacks (from more advance sequence).

After practise these sequence, and you know how they are applied then move on to free sparring.
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straydog
one of the traditional arguments against sparring is that you can develop bad habits if you spar. true, that's possible, but you develop no habits at all, good or bad, if you don't spar. it's like saying you should never actually play the guitar when you're taking guitar lessons because you might develop bad habits. well, that's why they have people called 'instructors'. so the difference is between developing a bazillion excellent habits and the capability of actually using those techniques full speed in a combat situation, while developing one or two bad habits (mainly, not breaking knees or not headbutting or not neck cranking), as opposed to developing no good habits at all. which method do you prefer?
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Royce's Girl
I believe that sparring is the ONLY way to truly learn techniques. After trying out a new technique against a non-resisting parter, my first goal is to try to use that same technique when I roll. It teaches you the context in which to use techniques, how to tailor them to your body type and style, helps solidify techniques into muscle memory, gives you confidence in your technique, teaches you to react to an opponent's reaction to your technique...

Say, from a self-defense perspective, that I had only ever practiced a kata in which someone grabbed me around the neck. I escape with my perfect series of maneuvers, end game. On the street, this neck grab isn't going to be quite so comfortable, quite so controlled and quite so predictable. Sparring is a friendly way to introduce a spontaneous, unpredictable neck grab without fear of injury, and the opportunity to try out escapes, see what works and see what needs work. And I highly recommend it.
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MA dude
I have to agree with Royce's girl. It is good to start off with a non-resisting partner but move on too resisting. I went to a Royce seminar and first we did a techinique such as getting out of a headlock non-resisting until we got it perfect and then tried it against a resisting partner.
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Royce's Girl

quote:

I went to a Royce seminar and first we did a techinique such as getting out of a headlock non-resisting until we got it perfect and then tried it against a resisting partner.



And then you realize it still isn't perfect, and doesn't work while rolling. And then you roll with Royce and he gives you the perfect opportunity to use it...and guess what? It still doesn't work...

And then two weeks later you're rolling, and you do it without thinking about it...and it works!

But maybe that's just me...
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Christo
And again:

Don't spar can't fight!

That simple!!!
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zefff
Although I am an advocate of sparring what do people think about people who have never trained let alone sparred, but possess good natural streetfighting skill?

Also to UKscrapper - do you know what these bad habits are that the gym talks about?
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Bushi
The only Bad habits i could imagine that come from sparring would be:
1) This strategic attitude, in that I mean this chess match that sparring turns into. This attitude is not wise in a real engagement. It should be get in and get out.
2) The underling attitude that it is no real big deal if I lose. In the SKREET this is unacceptable
3) The positional confidence that weapons are not present.

There are plenty more I am sure, but you still have to train with sparring if you hope to have techs work. It is opportunity cost.
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UK Scrapper
I briefly spoke to the instructor who teaches the style of YungJungdo which is some new TKD hybrid which was formed by some master in Australia. Basically he told me that points type competition develps bad habits for the street.
I have to say that I also advocate sparring for practicing techniques against a resisting opponent the reason I brought up this thread is because having spoken to that bloke made me curious if there were others who felt that sparring begets bad habits.
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zefff
ahh well if you'd have said "flicking the foot in yer face" type points sparring I think we'd all have agreed from the start!

I cant blame them cos I hate that stuff. Always remember being invited to watch one tournament once and seeing guys punch then quickly turn their back to the opponent cos hits to back were illegal. weak ass mofo's!!! Wasnt even entertaining to watch that crap!
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The BadBoy
quote:

Originally posted by zefff
Although I am an advocate of sparring what do people think about people who have never trained let alone sparred, but possess good natural streetfighting skill?



They've had enough fights to learn from experience, they have used their fights as sparring and training so to speak. And teh rest are just scary ass mofo's that you don't wanna fock with. My big bro is a bit like that. Never did a days training in his life but there is no way in hell i would wanna get on his bad side. And they let people like him become doctors
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username1.1
Sparring is essential in my opinion.

I hadnt really had much experience in fighting, apart from playfights with my younger brother who has never hit me in the face.
I went To Mauy Thai, first week i was sparring and i kept turning my back after kicks, and i got a hefty kick to the ribs because of this.

If i had not got this kick to my ribs i would not have learned to stay forward and focused.
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binhdinhboy
i would also agree that sparring is absolutely necessary. once u go into a fight without experience, one would start flinching like crazy and freaking out. i have a quick question though, wut about styles like haganah, krav maga, and aikido? wut about sparring in those styles? wuts it like?
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Taoist
quote:

Originally posted by The BadBoy
quote:

Originally posted by zefff
Although I am an advocate of sparring what do people think about people who have never trained let alone sparred, but possess good natural streetfighting skill?



They've had enough fights to learn from experience, they have used their fights as sparring and training so to speak. And teh rest are just scary ass mofo's that you don't wanna fock with. My big bro is a bit like that. Never did a days training in his life but there is no way in hell i would wanna get on his bad side. And they let people like him become doctors




i agree , real fights teach you how to fight . the closest thing to a real fight is sparring . if want want to learn to fight , then you have to fight .full contact anything goes sparring is the way to go . add ground techniques and everything . use headgear and stuff , if anyone is afraid to full contact spar then they dont really have much business calling themselves a fighter
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Arjun
I like full contact with boxing gloves. Your regular 8 or 12 ouncers are fine. This way you can go full force and get used to using that full force without damaging your opponent, then just practice on the ground later or in a different session.
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Martial_Monk
quote:

Originally posted by Taoist
quote:

Originally posted by The BadBoy
quote:

Originally posted by zefff
Although I am an advocate of sparring what do people think about people who have never trained let alone sparred, but possess good natural streetfighting skill?



They've had enough fights to learn from experience, they have used their fights as sparring and training so to speak. And teh rest are just scary ass mofo's that you don't wanna fock with. My big bro is a bit like that. Never did a days training in his life but there is no way in hell i would wanna get on his bad side. And they let people like him become doctors




i agree , real fights teach you how to fight . the closest thing to a real fight is sparring . if want want to learn to fight , then you have to fight .full contact anything goes sparring is the way to go . add ground techniques and everything . use headgear and stuff , if anyone is afraid to full contact spar then they dont really have much business calling themselves a fighter




agreed.
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Fighting multiples from the ground: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 15-03-2004, 19:29

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Fighting multiples from the ground

MA dude
Anyone know some good techniques while you are on the ground and several dudes are striking. In my shaolin school and we had the takedowns we used from the ground to knock the other dudes down while you were on the ground, anyone know ny other good ones.
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zefff
if they are striking you whilst u r on da ground you must protect your head with your arms whilst getting your legs under you so you can explode up into a run. Dont use your hands to help you get up! Forget fighting them off. Get up, get away. You cant do that if your head gets kicked like a football.
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Blade
I think a better question would be how not to end up on the ground with several guys kicking your head lol. Thats too late alredy
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BLACK PANTA
In a multiple attacker situation. DO NOT TAKE ANY OF THEM TO THE FLOOR. Strike your way out. Look for one dude (your exit) trash him and get the flug outta there. If you cant do that then fight your way out. do not take to foor.
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Bushi
There is always the the Windmill from Breakdancing

On a serious note, Black Panta has the best possible strategy(cause that is all there is, STRATEGY). Go for your exit door (the weakest link) and run.
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zefff
I dunno, Ive been caught up in multiple attack a couple of times (football hooligans, street robbery, gang related) and i found one or two punches yes to get a man out of your way but when striking you can get carried away if one doesnt go down right away and you leave your self open to punches from the side and back. And those punches, kicks and possible weapons WILL come! Must admit Ive never gone down thankfully, but what worked for me when surrounded was either punching or palming off while getting mobile and rushing at the gap in an explosive kind of rugby union manner...ahhh those were the days!
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8LimbsScientist
I think Zefff was the only one who is sort of answering the question.

The question is for a strategy to deal with multiple attackers on the floor. You guys are basically saying DON"T end up there. Thats not really fair because there are no guarantees in a fight and when fighting 3 or 4 guys there is a serious possiblility that you can end up on the ground with multiples somehow.

I don't really have an answer either, but I'm hoping to steer this conversation in a more constructive direction.
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BLACK PANTA
In a multiple attacker situation If you end up on the floor you have to accept the fact that you gonna get your ass kicked. The only defence I see is the fetile position. Try to cover yourself as well as you can. JJ and ground work as a whole is great, when one on one but against multiples you can't do much on the floor except hope you dont get hurt to badly.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
Learn breakdancing. Those different movements off the ground can be used to not only help you get back up, but throw yourself into the legs of multiple attackers, tripping them up. In fact, I might suggest staying low and staying in motion so that getting hit proves difficult.
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by DeStRuCtIkOn
Learn breakdancing. Those different movements off the ground can be used to not only help you get back up, but throw yourself into the legs of multiple attackers, tripping them up. In fact, I might suggest staying low and staying in motion so that getting hit proves difficult.



Pretty much learn Capoeria. They take the dance and pretty much make it combative. Still I dont think that would be effective. I mean if i see someone breakdancing his way up, I would just try to step on him, kick him, smother him and beat the shiznit out of him. Just cuz he's being difficult. Hey if I dont do any damage at least he stops moving and in the case of multiple attackers, my buddies could do the rest. Not to say thats how I fight now, but that would be the thought of multiple attackers. At least one of the thoughts.
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zefff
des is right about keeping on the move. Fetal position is bad cos u r then simply accepting the punishment. It doesnt make your situation better, it puts control in their hands.

Best thing I believe is to explode up with legs only. Use your hands, elbows and forearms to protect your head. The hard part is getting your legs under you because that puts your head at their hip level so you are out of stomping range but now in hook to side of head range, so once you feel your feet or one foot and knee touch the ground immediatley explode up and forward like a srinter out of the blocks.

While on the floor you can use your legs to attack their ankles and knees or trip but the danger is that they fall onto you or you become entagled and then limit your own mobility as the others attempt to stomp your head. Also this leg activity takes you out of a safer curled up position when you extend your legs. Just my humble opinion. Have been attacked by groups before and have attacked others as part of a group but never gone down myself. But I do believe that its harder to talk about getting back up than to actually do.
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SolidRedux
Don't start dancing. Well....they would be confused for a moment as you bust out your moves. Try cross-training in more melodic, dance MA. From my experience, the best thing to do is either look for a gap and "rugby-bust" yourself out of there.
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straydog
hook one foot behind the guy's ankle (achilles tendon area) and put the other foot on or above the knee and pull with your lower foot (behind his achilles) while pushing with your upper foot (the knee area). this really works and it'll sit the other guy down fast, but it's kind of hard to do anything if you've got 3 other guys kicking you. i don't like the fetal position at all in this situation, unless being a quadraplegic appeals to you. but do practice this one move, it's extremely simple and i'm always surprised at how well it works, even when i do it slow and sloppy. just be careful that you don't snap someone's knee while sparring. i think this is a jjj move, but i'm not certain. it might help in a situation like this, at least you'll have one less guy soccer kicking your head.
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EvilScott
Fighting multiple people on the ground is an exercise in futility - your best bet is to dump fancy crap and either run or put one guy in a submission and make him call his buddies off.

If you HAVE to fight multiples (ie. can't run) strike eyes and throats and stuff that will slow people down. THEN run.
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zefff
Evil mate, u cannot run if you are on the ground. U need to get up first. And if its begun calling them off aint gonna work. They will only care about stamping on your face nothing else - they will be hyped up like vultures at a carcass. They will only have eyes on the target - your head.

The submission wont work, trust me. While boxing your skull top and kicking your ribs they wont care about any pain a partner might be feeling, and if its you causing a nusaince the quickest way to end it is to hurt you more - not to cease fire and start negotiating! Any type of hold would need for you to move at least one (possibly more) limb(s) from its defensive duties of protecting your skull to offensive manouevers. That leaves you open to punches and kicks in the eye or ear and all sorts of unpleasentries!

If you do run from the pack, (as I have before), you will either be sprinting with eyes forward and not looking back cos u know u will die if caught again, or you will notice the differing fitness and intelligence levels of your pursuers. Which can be used to your advantage if they catch up with you again.

TBH though Im only going on my experiences as a teenager cos I dont get into trouble nowadays.
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SolidRedux
Word. Just run
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EvilScott
Zefff: This is why I try to avoid going to the ground in ANY situation - it limits your options. The submission for them stopping is more of a last ditch thing, and is a bit more effective if you can get a guy before his buds start stomping you and aren't frenzied yet. Its not a good option but its one of the few you have on the ground.

The ground is a place where KO'd people hang out.
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zefff
SolidRedux - u cant run when u r on the ground. This thread is about "what to when u r on the ground". Not "what to do to avoid the ground."

EvilScott - I would not advise you to try what you are proposing if u are ever in that position cos that sounds like a movie script but maybe u r talking about kids brawling??...I dunno but...if I were an attacker and you got my freind in a submission I would be more intent on biting your nose off, not less! What are you gonna do - hold the technique till the police show up? or get them to back up and drop their weapons?
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Lessons in Wrest. and Phsy. Culture by F. Burns: Old Forum T
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 16:42

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Lessons in Wrestling and Phsyical Culture by Farmer Burns

The BadBoy
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson01.htm
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HongKongDragon
Thanks
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scaramouche
Awesome. My favorite is "'Farmer' Burns Subduing Insane Man With A Razor."
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thebgbb
Yeah, that's good stuff. There isn't much about Catch Wrestling anymore, so it's good when people can find stuff like this.
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Becoming an all around good martial artist: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:52

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Becoming an all around good martial artist

ajoys
I am somewhat new in the martial art world with almost no experience other then some McDojo time as a kid for a few months. I am starting to look into putting together a program and right now I am trying to decide which styles to persue. I want to be able to accomplish a few goals. I want to get fit and spar often, learn stand up and ground fighting, learn self defense for reality type situations (ie, KB won't do much for me if someonw comes behind me and puts me in a head lock etc..) and learn how to use practical weapons (knive, sticks).


I am thinking about the following.

muay thai or KB- everyday sparring, fitness, standup
JJJ or krav maga- street defense
kali- weapons
BJJ- ground fighting

What do you guys think? Any suggestions on how to pursue this? Should I take just one art at a time or maybe a couple at once? Any way to simplify the process and still meet my goals? I have no experience so I am not sure if there are other styles that meet most my goals so that maybe I could reduce the list to just two or three.

I am also going to be moving to Denver in the next month or two so any school suggestions for the following arts would be great.

Thanks for the help guys.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
Find a Jeet Kune Do gym, as it seems you already more or less have in your mind you just want to use whatever works and styles be damned. When you sign up, tell your instructor your goals and ask which programs they have will help you with that. If there is something that this gym cannot provide, or offers with too many restrictions/costs then identify what those are and try to find alternatives. For instance, your gym might not have decent weapon training for some odd reason, so you can look into extra training time at a kali school elsewhere.

If that seems too involved or too dependent on your own initiative to get the training ball rolling, then look into Systema. It's a puzzlebox that offers all you need.
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MA dude
If you check out a JKD gym try one that is affiliated with straightblast gym or Burton Richardon. Most others are not good on the lines of self defense as these guys.
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THE
Here's my advice:

First, identify your goal or intentions. If you're interested in self-defense, you probably want to invest in self-defense systems. There are numerous gyms that teach the different elements of SD.

If you're interested in martial arts and getting involved in the MA community, competitions, etc... I would recommend either Muay Thai or BJJ for the more serious pursuits. You will gain invaluable insight on what it takes to really succeed at something. It's no joke.

Other good stuff on an intermeidate level are judo, TJJ and some karate schools... Avoid TKD schools and al the mystical stuff altogether.

For weapons, Kali is good...

I know everyone is a big fan of JKD, but I've never been sold on it. It's sort of like college without getting a real degree. Here's what I mean. You enter the curriculum and they teach you a bit of everything. The things you're good at, you develop. For instance, you realize you're a good grappler, so they emphasize grappling for your training. However, they do not have an indepth knowledge of some of the arts they teach...

I rolled with a JKD guy not long ago who claimed to be using NEW and IMPROVED BJJ techniques... Didn't work out for him... Turns out he was doing grappling for less than one year and they were teaching him all these techniques.

But, in the end... it's your decision.
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MA dude
I would go to www.straightblast.com and search for a gym near you since they seem to adress your needs best. Also check out www.mma.tv and search for schools on there. Happy hunting.

Last edited by MA dude on Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total
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dcohen
*sigh* MA Dude...if you don't know what you're talking about, don't try to advise others.

Ajoys - Though it would help if you posted your location, I can give some general advice that would apply in most places.

Small Arts: Any Argentinian or Chilean blade art (pretty much anything from South America that's not a hugely advertised system) is worth taking a good look at.

AMOK! Combatives - combination of higher-level Filipino stuff, blades and unarmed. Really neat stuff, you move like a good blade fighter very quickly.

Krav - if you're learning from ex-IDF or ex-operatives, go for it! It will make you a good fighter in very little time, and the good stuff is surprisingly soft, much like any style that works for RL. When it's being done to you, it's REAL fast, it's REAL confusing, and there are neckbreaks everywhere. Weapons are covered, if you're learning from someone who's 'been there and done that,' I assume you'll delve into the more James Bond like subjects in addition to that. Stay away from the US Krav big-advertising people.

WC - Worth looking at. Not at stiff as a lot of other styles. I've only trained with a few fighters, but never officially learned it myself.

BJJ - Same as above, though don't get into their mindset if you're looking for RL defense. If you find yourself on the ground and don't know what happened, the shiznit is good to be able to do, if you have no other groundfighting knowlege.

Systema - where I'm at. System that teaches basic principles that you adapt to any fighting range or situation, including groundfighting, stand up, weapons ranging from umbrellas to soda cans to AK-47s, groundfighting against multiple opponents, weapons against multiple opponents, EH vs weapons, etc. It's also nice in that you get to train with people who are very experienced in other arts. So that I'm not boasting about my art, I'll quote one of my training partners who happens to be a senior instructor for AMOK! combatives, Guro/Sifu Mario Dominguez. His resume is here: www.knifefighting.com/instructors/gaucho.html

I was first introduced to Systema a few years ago when Arthur Sennott, one of my fellow IBFG instructors, taught a segment on Systema EH and counter-knife principles at one of our camps. We are a hard core combatives training organization. Most of our students are military or LE- the 'show me it works better than what I got or thank you very much, don't call us, we'll call you' crowd. We train as close to reality as we can without ending up in the hospital after every class. What Arthur taught us that day was fantastic. It could be incorporated into our skillset immmediately. That impressed me. What impressed me even more was the way he could fight against multiple hard core highly trained completely non-cooperative opponents- liquid, effortless, efficient, and oh so deadly. So, I tried. It was like fighting smoke and he tied me up in knots. I wasn't even sure I could have beaten him with a blade in my hand and no ego but that thought just doesn't cross my mind very often. After over three decades of training and fighting, it was an eye-opening experience. I WANTED what he had BAD! And now I'm getting it .

As far as teaching goes, by adding Systema principles to the Amok! teaching progressions I have been able to take new students- i.e., with zero real fighting skills- and have them moving and fighting like experienced fighters in significantly less time. Plus, I teach our scenario classes, and the Systema trained fighters in our group deal with real world realtime full out adrenalized scenarios better than the other experienced fighters in our group.

The bottom line is that Systema works for me, my training partners, my students. It will improve your fighting- quickly, not thirty years from now- whether you are a beginner or a skilled veteran of many fights. I urge every serious fighter out there to try it for themselves and then judge.

IMHO, his words matter more than mine.

So, take a look around. See what you want, and if you have anything you think I might be able to tell you more about or help you with, feel free to drop me a PM with questions.

-David
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MA dude
Where did I not know were I was talking about? That I do not think that "reality self defense" arts except for probaly Russian and Israeli ones since they were ussually tested. Or the recomendation to Straight Blast Gym I thought it would be good idea it fits what he wants.
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dcohen
quote:

Originally posted by MA dude
I would not suggest except for the Israeli and russian "Reality self defense arts" since nearly all of them suck except for a few.



You added in "except for the Israeli and Russian" after I posted.

That's where. Sweeping statements are not something I value. I don't care if it's good or bad, they are sweeping statements made by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Have you ever tried a russian reality self defense art? Then don't feel like you have the authority to say much about it, whether good or bad.

-David
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MA dude
Point taken.
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MA dude
www.starzworld.com this anywhere near you. Only school I know in Colorado at the moment besides a tjj school which i do not know the site of. But I am not sure if it offers sparring or what ryu it is.
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8LimbsScientist
To answer one question of yours that I'm not sure has been answered yet, I would suggest not taking more than one style at a time at first. You have had very limited MA experience before this, so you want to make sure you get the basics down for one system before you start mixing in something else. If you really really want to take two arts at once, make sure they aren't similar. For instance, don't take Muay Thai and Karate at the same time. You'll just end up confused.

The best scenario is to stick with one art, get good at it, use that as a core style and then branch out and incorporate elements from these other styles into your core style.
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ajoys
I am looking in the denver colorado area.

So far I have come up with these schools.

http://www.denverama.com/

http://www.coloradokravmaga.com/

http://www.grapplers-edge.com/

http://www.bjjboulder.com/

http://www.coloradobjj.com/

http://www.systemamartialart.com/

What do you guys think?

Last edited by ajoys on Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total
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zaius
quote:

Originally posted by Triangle
I know everyone is a big fan of JKD, but I've never been sold on it. It's sort of like college without getting a real degree. Here's what I mean. You enter the curriculum and they teach you a bit of everything. The things you're good at, you develop.



wtf? i don't think that's how JKD works. anyways, how is college related to developing the things you're good at and without getting a real degree? i think a lot of college students would get offended by that.

well, i found this out, when you get out of college or university (after you're done your high school of course), you'll realize still that you haven't learnt anything once you step out into the real world.
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8LimbsScientist
I think he meant that JKD is like going to college, but not getting a real degree. Not that people who go to college don't get degrees.
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bamboo
One thing that is very important to maintain if your going to be an all round martial artist is your integrity.

You will learn many interesting techniques and strategies along your chosen martial path that will both feed your self esteem as well as give you an advantage over many people both mentally and physically. Remember to apply what you learn in a proper and ethical way.

I know fighting is a big part of martial arts and competition, but so should be your cultivation of mindfullness. When you control your actions and don't let your emotions take over, you will always be the victor.

Good luck,

-bamboo

(oh yeah, don't open a Mcdojo!)
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CreativeFighter
I am afraid that you are making your problem much too complicated. There is no one solution to your problem, nor can we calculate what would most fit you off of a paragraph description referring to your goals. I have made two basic rules for people who are taking more than one martial art.

1) NEVER mix stand up fighting arts
2) It is perfectly ok and benefitial to mix ground fighting arts

The reason is because in a stand up situation, if you have trained in two arts equally, you may pollute one with another. For example, I take WIng Chun and MT. Even though I have been taking WC longer, whenever I fight, I adopt a MT stance and enter with Thai kicks rather than traditional WC entries. This is because the stance indeed affects everything else you do. I still trap, but if I were to ONLY take WC or MT then I could do everything from the same perspective instead of switching uncomfortable static stances in the middle of a fight.

As far as a style in relation to your goals, pick traditional or "modern". If you do one of both, the modern art will overpower the traditional one at the beginning of your training, giving you half baked knowledge of both. If you are doing traditional, my suggestion would be something as physically demanding as (perhaps) Hung Gar or something that will harden the bones and for ground fighting, go for either Sambo or Kino Mutai. Systema and Ba Gua would work perfectly, however with these styles it is more beneficial to only take one at a time.

If you are looking for something more modern, go for MT or Sanshou, then take either Judo or Sambo. For a reality situation I would not reccomend BJJ because it does not thoroughly cover the takedowns and 99.9% it is taught from a competition perspective. For example, when we were covering the techniques where you jump on your opponent and lock your ankles behind his back (the whole time standing up), I asked my instructor if it was practical to use your feet to take out his knees. This was indeed very practical and hurt my friend but my instructor told me that I would be disqualified.

So find one art, and remember two things. First of all, it may seem strange at first, and the second, you are never bound to a single art, that's why you pay by the month not by the year.
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