Is Aikido Effective for Street Fights.
Original Poster: vladimir
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 16-12-2005, 03:02
Orginal Post: vladimir: Is it?
Post: Bushi:
I vote No, because participating in Street fights is counter to Aikido.>
Post: setsu nin to:
In my oppinion it is, ofcourse it all depende on aikidoka, his Sensei, Dojo..., but generaly Aikido as martial art is effective in street fights.
I also wouldnt agree that "participating in Street fights is counter to Aikido", becouse in the end its martial art. I would say that point is not to hurt other human if you have any other option, if its his or your life situation ofcourse that you will hurt or even kill your opponent.>
Post: Bushi:
I think it is effective for Self-defense, but not for street fighting.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
<forum stock response>An art is only as effective as the individual makes it for him or herself through years of arduous training.</forum stock response>>
Post: zefff:
I dont know anything about Aikido TBH but it seems to have a general reputation of being soft from what Ive read. Kind of like how Tai chi is percieved (old people doing it for health reasons), people who want to develop fighting skill see it as useless probably because the majority of folks who practise it are not fighters themselves. Fighting and contact is the last thing they want to do and this is why they were attracted to the art rather than Kyokushinkai, MT or summat else like that where you will get hit a lot and have to confront fears every other lesson...if a sincere student goes to an Aikido class and finds himself surrounded by white witches and delusional teenage wannabe ninjas then of course this will impact on perception of the art.
This is not my experience, it is a general view Ive picked up off the internet really, Ive only met two young Aikidoka and both were very posturing and full of 'the spirit' of Aikido but it all fell apart under sparring (emptyhand and sticks). Maybe it was lack of experience in Aikido, but of course in sparring they wouldnt recieve as much force as in a real situation.
So how might Aikido prepare one for a streetfight?>
Post: bamboo:
Nope,
We are all just a bunch of fancy prancy nancy boys crossdressing and living our fantasies of ki power on the mat.
We all fake it.
We can only take on other aikidoka that give no resistance.
None of us have ever been in a street fight.
Noone in aikido has ever learned to strike.
If any of us actually win a fight, its only because we used a technique that another art also uses or it was not aikido.
None of us have any martial awareness what so ever.
We all practice with dead patterns, no resistance and a huge ego.
I've NEVER sparred or done judo style randori.
BTW, disregard anything I have ever written on this forum because I very obviously have been living in a fantasy world and never put any of the advice I have given into practice, after all, I practice aikido.
Sorry Vlad, but I get grow tired of this question. I manage to convince the ones I practice with but they usually just say that what I did was not aikido behind my back. You already have your mind made up or you wouldn't have asked.
All arts are dead, MMA is dead, its the practice that makes it alive.
-bamboo, fantasy fighter.>
Post: nbotary:
I say hell yes, becuase Steven Seagal does Aikido, and we all know that he really is a badass and not some "Hollywood Hero".... :lol: :lol:
I think it depends. It's just like any other martial art in that if you train properly and your technique is good, then it can be applied to anything. However, it is not an end-all, be-all and you must be able to change the conditions of the fight in order for your techniques to work properly. Remember, in an Aikido class students are told to bull rush you a certain way in order for you to execute a specific technique. In a streetfight, you can't ask or tell your enemy to rush you a certain way. Therefore, you must be able to adapt and overcome. If you can't do that, then no matter how good you are in a class setting, you might get your ass handed to you.>
Post: dscott:
I think that a lot of people underestimate Aikido thinking that it's strictly a defensive art.
Nbotary: You mention that it's not as effective because in class, students are told to rush in a certain way. It's like that in every other martial art. If I'm training Muay Thai, my opponent is also training in Muay Thai with the clinch, knees, kicking, etc.... Once you get onto the street, things become different and you have to adapt.
I think that Aikido is an easily adaptable art if you're good enough at it.>
Post: nbotary:
[quote=dscott I think that a lot of people underestimate Aikido thinking that it's strictly a defensive art.[/quote I agree. A lot of people underestimate Aikido and what a good practioner can do.
[quote=dscott Nbotary: You mention that it's not as effective because in class, students are told to rush in a certain way. It's like that in every other martial art. If I'm training Muay Thai, my opponent is also training in Muay Thai with the clinch, knees, kicking, etc.... Once you get onto the street, things become different and you have to adapt.[/quote No, I never said that it wasn't effective. I said that you have to learn to adapt, change and overcome the situation. Just like any martial art, you usually learn a technique as a 1-2-3 step process in a controlled environment. Streetfights are not 1-2-3 and they are anything but controlled. If you learn your techniques this way, but don't learn how to change the situation to apply your technique, then no matter what art you train, your technique may not be effective. You can't put square pegs into round holes.
Kung Fu uses Chin Na - which are the same joint locks Morihei Ueshiba took from Jiu Jitsu. If were trained to use the "swim" technique (which results in a choke) on someone who is moving forward and pushing me back, the odds of it being effective are good. However, if the person grabs me, pulls me forward and then pushes me back, I'm not going to use the "swim" technique. I'm going to use a technique that begins with the assailant grabbing me. To try and use the "swim" technique from the initial grab is not a practical application. They also may not push me from a front position - they could grab me and push me from behind. I have to adapt and change to the conditions of the fight in order to do what I want to my opponent. It's my responsibility to learn how to use my training instinctively and just react. That is the key.
[quote=dscott I think that Aikido is an easily adaptable art if you're good enough at it.[/quote I agree with you 100%. I think a lot of what Aikido has to offer can be incorporated into other styles.>
Post: setsu nin to:
In my oppinion bigest problem of Aikido is becouse people talk all the time about it and dont know nothing about Aikido. I realy mean it!
Lets put it these way...
How many people knows names of just five unarmed Aikido techniques and lets say just two techniques where is used jo, tanto or sword. Or even just how techiques goes. How many people here knows it widouth looking it on some webpage or book? How many people read just two books about Aikido? How many people spend just ten hours practicing it? How many people here practice Aikido with someone who have 5th dan or more given to him by some recognised organization or Sensei?
Now I feel that there is maybe little too much people there who say "its uneffective" or "its not for selfdefense" or "its not for street"...>
Post: dscott:
I don't train in it and never have. That's why I respect it.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=bamboo BTW, disregard anything I have ever written on this forum because I very obviously have been living in a fantasy world and never put any of the advice I have given into practice, after all, I practice aikido.
Sorry Vlad, but I get grow tired of this question. I manage to convince the ones I practice with but they usually just say that what I did was not aikido behind my back. You already have your mind made up or you wouldn't have asked.
All arts are dead, MMA is dead, its the practice that makes it alive.[/quote
I just thought this needed to be reiterated. It seemed people missed bamboo's point.>
Post: Dirty_Irishman:
Setsu has a good point. The general public for the most part has only seen Aikido through internet video clips and Segal movies...neither of which mark it as spectacular. Especially since most of Segal's stuff is correographed by Guro Inosanto's people and uses mostly FMA instead of Aikido. Which gives people the wrong idea about the art.
I remember seeing a clip on Real TV though where some pimp took a swing at this guy and he just knocked him smooth the hell. It turns out the guy was an Aikido instructor and was actually teaching a group of police officers.
So judging by ONLY WHAT I'VE SEEN it is effective in a street fight as long as you act first. Which is kind of common sense; if you think there's a threat either walk away or knock his ass out. What feels worse a guilty conscience or a knife wound?
All in all I'm thinking about picking up a little Aikido when I'm not so bogged down. Everything I study focuses on descimating my opponent, might be useful to have something a little less destructive.>
Post: redswordsman:
Man I think Aikido is a good art in fighting man the only problem with it is that it doesn't really also practice offense. I used to be an aikidoist and then I tried to change art into a mma (presas style). Well the good thing about practicing aikido is that when you change art it is easy to adapt. Well also aikido has a lot to offer. If it wasn't for aikido my brother could have been dead (fall into a high christmas tree). Also it helps you to adapt your speed in fighting. Right know I really think aikido is really a good art because if you really reach in the extreme level of aikido they will teach you the counter against counter for grapple. Also I think that it really just depend upon the people that use the art in fighting that makes it effective.>
Post: setsu nin to:
redswordsman
Hm, in my oppinion you are right and wrong in same time. Generaly Aikido have deffensive techniques, but its just general. In my oppinion any good Aikidoka can use Aikido techniques as offensive techniques. Just friendly advice... Dont look to use techniques just as they are written in book, becouse its martial book, not art. Improvise, start with one technique and finish with other, play with techniques. Thats martial art.>
Post: JC1007:
It's always been my understanding that many of the control holds and movement techniques that I teach have their origins in Aikido. These are techniques that I have applied on the streets in a variety of circumstances. Anything from simple passive resistance to violent and aggressive attacks. The key in any of these situations was in spotting a weakness in my opponent's defenses and exploiting that weakness to my benefit. I don't think any paricular style is more or less effective in a street fight, but knowing how to apply your training in a real situation is.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
Aikido...........is that art still around? Man I thought that art went the way of Kendo, Taichi, BJJ and the friggin DODO.>
Post: redswordsman:
[quote=setsu nin to redswordsman
Hm, in my oppinion you are right and wrong in same time. Generaly Aikido have deffensive techniques, but its just general. In my oppinion any good Aikidoka can use Aikido techniques as offensive techniques. Just friendly advice... Dont look to use techniques just as they are written in book, becouse its martial book, not art. Improvise, start with one technique and finish with other, play with techniques. Thats martial art.[/quote
Dude I don't think you got what I mean man. Wait I will just give an example it is all up to you if you would believe me or not. For example:
One day when my brother was fixing a christmas tree (It is really tall and it is like 35 feet tall) suddenly his friend joke around and he fall down the christmas tree down to the grass ( I presume it was in 25 feet that he fell). When he fell he did a combination of hard fall, back roll, etc. Well everyone thought his bones were broken or he was dead. He just stood up and few scratches like nothing happen. Well I believe him because all of the students in the school saw it. (We were studying in the philippines at ust). Also I also told that aikido has a lot to offer because my master also learned all of the counter against counter in grapple ( he learned some in aikido). If you won't believe me then it is really up to you to decide.>
Post: setsu nin to:
nedswordsman
no, no, no I didnt doubt your story or anything like that. My point was just that there is offense in Aikido.>
Post: redswordsman:
Ohh sorry now I get your point. :lol:>
Post: km:
i saw a lot's of stuff about aikido, including some original training with O-sensei morihei ueshiba, and it's the perfect form to protect yourself against everything and everyone, but you have to train 8 hours a day, all days of the week, after 20 years nobody can even reach you, but until then you're nothing.
Or you really know aikido, or you dont....there are no middle parts of it..>
Post: bamboo:
Anyone else that has never spent anytime on a mat actualy training in aikido have any opinions?
:roll:>
Post: setsu nin to:
Thats excellent point km. Thats why I buy Chris Clugston video tapes and become martial arts expert in month of sitting home and watching his videos.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=bamboo Anyone else that has never spent anytime on a mat actualy training in aikido have any opinions?
:roll:[/quote
Yeah I hope y'all wear underwear under that Japanese kilt. I mean I wouldn't want to see you pull a Marilyn Monroe.....*shudder*>
Post: bamboo:
Panta-
Your a pretty tough guy when my wife isn't beating you up.
Next time your visiting I'll be sure to post your comments in the dojo the night before you show up....it'l be fun. :D
lol! :lol:
-bamboo>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=bamboo Panta-
Your a pretty tough guy when my wife isn't beating you up.
Next time your visiting I'll be sure to post your comments in the dojo the night before you show up....it'l be fun. :D
lol! :lol:
-bamboo[/quote
I'll be good :cry:>
Post: setsu nin to:
Bamboo please tape it, we all whant to see Mrs Bamboo vs. Panta fight!>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=setsu nin to Bamboo please tape it, we all whant to see Mrs Bamboo vs. Panta fight![/quote
It's not really a fight, more of a documentary on how to properly spread a Panta evenly over tatami.>
Post: lakan_sampu:
hey redswordsman, who are you? hehehehe...noting, I'm a filipino stduying at USt to...I know that xmas tree....
A kombatan arnisador
(this should be Pmd, really...I'm too lazy, damn)>
Post: BekDogg:
Fight for peace!>
Post: soktjoky89:
I practice Aikido, Everymovement is a strike, lock ,break, or kill. 8O The same goes for Tai' Chi and a few other innocent looking forms. It is very useful in a street fight due to the motion and the awareness of things around you. If the attacker has a weapon, there are a couple hundred ways to disarm the attacker and there are no defined forms. So if something changes midstide you can adapt very quickly unlike some of the other forms out there. :twisted: :wink: 8)>
Post: samurai6string:
wait.....kill? in Aikido? isn't the point ethical self defense? IMHO that seems counter to Aikido philosophy. How long have you studied Aikido Soktjoky89? Also, forms don't restrict your ability to adapt, and this is coming from a jjj guy, I think maybe someone is blowing smoke up your butt.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=samurai6string wait.....kill? in Aikido? isn't the point ethical self defense? IMHO that seems counter to Aikido philosophy. How long have you studied Aikido Soktjoky89? Also, forms don't restrict your ability to adapt, and this is coming from a jjj guy, I think maybe someone is blowing smoke up your butt.[/quote
I think he's saying that there is the potential to kill in the techniques. Remember Ushiba derived Aikido from battlefield techniques. Just because there are throws, joint locks and pins does not mean that the doors for punches/kicks are closed. Not to mention the fact that they are trained in many aspects of the Japanese sword.
either that or i misread his post.....i just skimmed....>
Post: samurai6string:
I know that the potential for punches and kicks exist, but in a purely Aikido sense, paying full attention to the "do" involved, would killing strikes be included in a strictly Aikido repetiore <sp?> of techniques? maybe that's an entirely different subject. If you would consider those techniques to be consistent with Aikido philosophy, under what circumstances would they be warranted?>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=samurai6string I know that the potential for punches and kicks exist, but in a purely Aikido sense, paying full attention to the "do" involved, would killing strikes be included in a strictly Aikido repetiore <sp?> of techniques? maybe that's an entirely different subject. If you would consider those techniques to be consistent with Aikido philosophy, under what circumstances would they be warranted?[/quote
this is a question best answered by bamboo. However IMO and understanding, Aikido is trenched in budo, in a life or death situation, if the situation called for killing, then kill. I also see it be-fitting for an Aikidoka to learn lethal techniques.....just look at Marked for Death...."yuh kill meh breddah, no meh guh kill yooooo" All in all the art doesn't fight, you do.>
Post: TKDman:
[quote=soktjoky89 I practice Aikido, Everymovement is a strike, lock ,break, or kill. [/quote
I don't know if I agree with that. How would something like shomenuchi ikkyo undo be considered any one of those 4? Or maybe even just the irimi or tenkan tai sabaki? Sounds like what you're doing is Hapkido.
[quote=soktjoky89 If the attacker has a weapon, there are a couple hundred ways to disarm the attacker[/quote
Sure about that? The way I see it, there's ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, kotegaeshi, kokyunage, iriminage, kaitenage, koshinage, and shihonage (probably a few other oddballs I forgot). It seems to me that the only thing that changes is how the attack is delivered and a slight change in how you begin the technique, but other than that, it seems to me that all aikido techniques stem from the ones I mentioned. You wouldn't say "I know 8 different ikkyo's" as opposed to "I know 8 different ways to apply an ikkyo", would you?
Paging Bamboo to tell me what a bonehead I am. :oops:
[quote=samurai6string I know that the potential for punches and kicks exist, but in a purely Aikido sense, paying full attention to the "do" involved, would killing strikes be included in a strictly Aikido repetiore <sp?> of techniques? maybe that's an entirely different subject. If you would consider those techniques to be consistent with Aikido philosophy, under what circumstances would they be warranted?[/quote
I think punches and kicks (atemi) are definitely part of Aikido. You have to learn to defend against them, so of course you'll have to know how and when to use them. For instance, in my school, when we do katatori techniques, we thrust our hand towards uke's face with an open hand (which can easily be changed to a fist) to turn it away so they don't see us slide that hand down and apply ikkyo/nikyo etc...>
Post: kungfumaster:
aikido is effective for street fights but u need a high understanding of the concepts and the philosophy.>
Post: bamboo:
Quote: You wouldn't say "I know 8 different ikkyo's" as opposed to "I know 8 different ways to apply an ikkyo", would you?
Depends on what school and system you are learning. Some have names for each and every variation, some call it all kokyu nage (not kidding). Ikkyo is the principle at work, the techniques used to practice those techniques each have a name. Further, ikkyo can be found in all the "other" techniques from kotegaeshi to jujinage to sukomen iriminage.
Quote: I know that the potential for punches and kicks exist, but in a purely Aikido sense, paying full attention to the "do" involved, would killing strikes be included in a strictly Aikido repetiore <sp?> of techniques? maybe that's an entirely different subject. If you would consider those techniques to be consistent with Aikido philosophy, under what circumstances would they be warranted?
This question depends on under whom you study. I know some shihan that would never raise a closed a fist while others will simply strike you hard and fast because they did not feel the need to use aikido osae or nage waza since the opening presented by uke was so obvious and the attack flawed. I have had the black eyes and busted face to prove this.
As far as killing blows, I would suggest this depends on one's relationship to one's self and essentially the "do" or path of "harmony" on which they travel.
When I walked that path it was partly in an attempt to tie my zen trainining to the "automatic" mind and body of a martial artist. I have not and do not hesitate to defend myself or those around me with whatever intensity is gifted to me by the so called aggressor. Remember, this is not always determined in a physical sense, the persons mental attitude that is projected equates greatly into this factor.
Not everything ends with a so-called killing blow, but to know how to control, one must know both sides of the coin, both in and yo should be studied and understood before you can truly say you understand a technique. This in my opinion a true study of a "way of harmony". Look up the word harmony for a little exercise, harmony ties together opposites. :wink:
On this note, this is where I believe martially effective people of aikido part ways with the aikibunnies that breed so rapidly in the aikido community as well as the "hard men" of aikibudo. When you only study one way, you never understand that way fully.
Just my two cents,
bamboo>
Post: TKDman:
Quote: Depends on what school and system you are learning. Some have names for each and every variation, some call it all kokyu nage (not kidding). Ikkyo is the principle at work, the techniques used to practice those techniques each have a name. Further, ikkyo can be found in all the "other" techniques from kotegaeshi to jujinage to sukomen iriminage.
I suppose school is a big factor. At our school, we describe the attack (katadori, shomenuchi, etc) and then the "defense" (ikkyo, kokyunage, etc). Plus that ikkyo can be found in "other" techniques kinda reinforces my point that it's the princple at work, not any particular technique. Semantics, I guess. Whatever. Great post, bamboo.>
Post: JCSamurai:
My two cents about the attacks or defences of aikido is simply this.
O'Sensei was said to practice few techniques, these were the ones that I guess he was really strong at.
The point is this, you must practice any art according to you. Remember the words of Master Lee, Martial Arts is a way of expression. I rank in Shotokan Karate and Nisei Goju Ryu or (Goju-Ju-jitsu) I try to use all of those to compliment "My Aikido"
My aikido is simply that an expression of myself to defend myself.
"Am I preaching now? sorry I'll shut up.>
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