English Kenshi in Japan?
Original Poster: bamboo
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 30-03-2004, 18:56

Orginal Post: bamboo: I was browsing the BBC site and came across this and thought it may be interesting http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/712859.stm.

Its about an englishmen wrecked on japan some 400 years ago. Anyone else ever heard of this or seen reference to it in any historical texts?

-bamboo[/i 

Women Samurai
Original Poster: bamboo
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 27-03-2004, 13:40

Orginal Post: bamboo: Often when we discuss samurai we tend to leave out the women. I thought it may be interesting to discuss women and thier roles in the development and participation in war and martial arts.

Naginata is considered by most to be the choice weapon and system of the woman warrior, one great exception to that rule would be Tomoe Gozen. She served under Minamoto Yoshinoka during the Gempei war and distinguished herself as a samurai in her own right. Unlike most women of the time that used naginata, she used the noblest of all weapons - the bow. She rode into battle using the bow but also engaged in man to woman combat using the tachi. Her death was recorded as being during battle with Minamoto Yoshinoka, she died a true samurai.

-bamboo

Hagakure
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 24-03-2004, 14:59

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: I am just interesting in discousion about book.
Did you read Hagakure and whats yours opinion about it?

I would like serious discousion, also I noticed that some people who said that they read hagakure or didnt read it or forgot all about it.

Tesshu
Original Poster: bamboo
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 23-03-2004, 20:41

Orginal Post: bamboo: I just finished the biography of swordsman and artist Yamaoka Tesshu.
He would be what many might consider to be the last true samurai. Born in the 1800s and living before the westernization of Japan, he was both master and constant student. I would consider him to be at par with Miyamoto Musashi, although , this opinion is based solely on conjecture.

Has anyone else read of him or practice his style, the Itto Shoden Muto Ryu or No sword System of the correct transmission of Ito Ittosai?

-bamboo

aikido vs. aiki...: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 19-03-2004, 19:30

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: aikido vs. aiki...

mayday
I know some of you guys probably heard this before, but I am a novice so I have to know. What is the exact difference between aikido and aikijujutsu or whatever is the name...Is it a difference based on efficency? Can both of them be as useful?

Thank you
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Bushi
To be very general Aikido is a Budo. and Aikijujutsu is a Bujutsu.
Aikido came from the older art of Aikijujutsu. The main difference is goals.

Ai= Harmonizing/Blending. This is the method and the strategy of the art. To not go force on force with the opponent but to blend with his movements and goals. A good way to look at it is to join sides with his movements and once a bond has been made to redirect it to your goal.

Ki=Energy,spirit, intention etc. This is the manifestation of the opponents will in physical movement ie. direction applied energy and intent. His will is manifest in his attack and defense therefore revealing his wants.

Budo= Martial way or path, it has a spiritual/philosphical connotation.
These arts were formed after the fall of the Samurai class during the Meiji restoration 1868. The emphasis prior to Japans modernization was the effectiveness of an art during force on force battles. Since those times are gone the arts tried to "evolve" to have a more practical (to modern society) application. Since there were no more people walking around with swords the arts took on a more character development orientation.

Bujutsu=Martial Art or system/method. These are the pre-modernization arts and their emphasis was combat. They were very rarely concerned with character development, but more with winning in combat or confrontations. Whether you mean killing, maiming or subduing depended on the situation, but that was the focus.

This very general definition should help for you to research their diffrences more closely.
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setsu nin to
mayday

Here how it goes.

Everything starts with Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Moust people today when say Aikijujutsu mean Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. It was strict seacret school for centuries, all till the end of Shogunate, 1868 (also end of Edo period). After 1868 Soke Sokaku Takeda (moust fameous Soke od Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu) start teachnig Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu to the public. Well "public" was diferent than from what is today. He teachned Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu to the moust highest society in Japan.

Daito ryu Aikijujutsu was one of the moust elite and seactert martial arts in Japan, used by emperors gard and highest clas of Samurais. Best proof how Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is efficant martial art is Sokaku Takeda who won the combats with sumo wrestlers, judo, karate, kenpo... experts when he was in eighties!!!

In 1915 Morihei Ueshiba starts practicing Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu under Sokaku Takeda. Also Morihei Ueshiba was moust fameous (which doesnt mean that he was best) student of Sokaku Takeda and founder of Aikido.
Morihei Ueshiba practiced Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu under Sokaku Takeda till the end of Takedas life in 1943.

Morihei Ueshiba practicing Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu developed is techniques to peacful way and call new art Aikido. There are many techniques from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu that are not in Aikido, and techniques which were put in Aikido were modificationed so that they cant hurt opponent.
So Aikido would be some peacfull wariation of Aikijujutsu.
1942 is official year when Aikido was "born" and same year name Aikido become registered with Ministry of Education.

Also there is Daito-ryu Aiki Budo. Soke Tokimune Takeds (son of Soke Sokaku Takeda) change name of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu in Daito-ryu Aiki Budo. Daito-ryu Aiki Budo includes all techniques of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and Onoha Itto-ryu Kenjutsu.


In second half of 20 century many Senseis mix techniques from Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo into Aikido. There is no proof that OSenseis Aikido ever had these techniques.
Same in second half of 20 century many Senseis found new branches of Daito-ryu, 99% of that branches are fake and have nothing with Daito-ryu.
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bamboo
To go further on Bushi and Setsu's breakdown, here is an example of some of the japanese Daito ryu groups alone.

Daito ryu Gidokai - founded by Hideo Hogo
DR Kodokai - founded by kodo Horikawa
DR Rengokai - founded by Yoshinori Ichikawa
Takedaden Daito ryu aiki budo - formely headed by the late Tokimune Takeda (now run by his son in law)
DR aikijujutsu - headed munemitsu takeda (grandson of Tokimune)
DR Roppokai - founded by Seigo Okamoto
DR Shimbukan - headed by Katsuyuki Kondo (the only instructor living to receive the full transmission of techniques)
DR bokukan - founded by katsumi yonezawa

All of these groups can trace their lineage and give certificates, there are tonnes of groups in N. America that have no certification whatsoever, but also some good schools as well.


-bamboo
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mayday
Ok, but I need to know something. Since you talked about the evolution of the martial arts, concept that I agree with, I'd like to know if these two martial arts have the same efficency.

thank's

mayday
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bamboo
Both aikijutsu and aikido arts are very effective, one is for killing and ending a conflict in a quick and often brutal fashion, the other is about controlling and subduing an attacker with a mimum amount of force and damage. Neither can be learned faster than the other and both have extremely effective techniques based on the principles of aiki.

It really depends on you and your intentions, abilities and drive.

Visit both dojos and get a feel for the people, watch how they train and decide which is better for you.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
As I said there is many diferent branches of Diato-ryu. Some are real good but moust of them are crap.
Also many of these fake schools make all fake history, diplomas, techniques...
Few branches are recognised by real Daito-ryu, but thats few from hunderts of them. Even if you finde some school with recognised Daito-ryu school name it doesnt mean hat its real. It could be some McDojo.
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setsu nin to
In my opinion pure OSenseis Aikido dont have some realy exelent techniques but today you may finde Aikido schools where Aikido is more Aikijujutsu than Aikido.
Which one is better? Real question is what do you whant?
I like more Aikijujutsu becouse of his aproach to the technique and becouse point of every technique is to stop your anemy. Also I found it as more effective.
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mayday
right, thank's, still I think I go with Aikido, since my purpose is not to kill people^^
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setsu nin to
mayday

right, thank's, still I think I go with Aikido, since my purpose is not to kill people^^

Will you kill someone or hurt him or you whant, with Aikijujutsu depende on how you preform technique.
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Nihon Goshin Aikido too disconnected form original art?: Old
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 16-03-2004, 23:41

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Nihon Goshin Aikido too disconnected form original art?

meowrsx
Well, I'm considering going to a Nihon Goshin Aikido School (www.ngaikido.com), but I feel it is too unlike other Aiki- arts. First off, they use colored belts, not just white and black. Also, they have incorporated more strikes, and although I'm not against this at all, it makes it less related to O-sensei's Aikido. And the third, and most concerning part for me is that they do not use a single japanese term besides the name.

I'm thinking, how do I talk to other Aikidoka who haven't taken NGA? They'll all be discussing wazas and atemi, and I'll be saying "is anyone else here having trouble with muggers throw"? Perhaps I just have to learn to deal with the fact that the different branches of Aikido are each unique, and cannot always perfectly interact with eachother.
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bamboo
Meowrsx

I would not worry too much at all. Alot of dojos, (not just nihon goshin) use coloured belts, (yoseikan) as well as individual dojos. As far as terminology goes, I have practiced with Nihon Goshin people and we had no problems at all (I practice ASU aikikai), most of them used japanese terminology. If you find yourself at a non nihon goshin seminar, you'll be watching and practicing and not really caring about names.

As far as Atemi Waza (striking) goes, many other aikido styles use it frequently. At my dojo, atemi is required for each technique or it is considered to be incorrect, and once you practice it with a fully resisting uke, it is absolutely a must. Each dojo is different even if they belong to an organization under a shihan, and from I have seen, this is true as well for the Nihon Goshin style.

Just go and enjoy yourself , remember it takes quite abit of patience and practice learning the aiki arts, so take your time.

-bamboo
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Bushi
I agree take your time be patient and watch closely. As far as Terminology goes most Aikido is taught with very little if any talking, so who cares you could always learn the terms on the net or a book.
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setsu nin to
meowrsx

...I feel it is too unlike other Aiki- arts.
If you are talking about Aiki-arts than you have to know that there is much more than Aikido.

First off, they use colored belts, not just white and black.
You may finde two schools under same organization with diferent collor belt ranks. One schools will use white, brown and black and other will use white yellow, orange, green, brown and black. Its realy not important and it doesnt mean nothing. Two schools under same organization may have diferent collored belts in use, but they have to have same number of Kyu or students ranks. So in one it may be in use white, yellow and orange belt for 7kyu, 6kyu, 5kyu for example, and in other schooll only white belt will be in use for same three students ranks.

Also, they have incorporated more strikes
Well that just mean that these style of Aikido is more similar to Aikijujutsu or Aikibudo.

And the third, and most concerning part for me is that they do not use a single japanese term besides the name.
Well again it all depende on Sensei. He can use only english terms and if you will need Japanese terms you may always learn them very easy.

I'm thinking, how do I talk to other Aikidoka who haven't taken NGA?
You may finde many Aikido "dictionarys" on internet. You may learn many Aikido terms there.
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meowrsx
Thanks a bunch, all your answers are really helpful. I think I'm gonna go with it, and hopefully have a great time!
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Karate Justification: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 16:31

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Karate Justification


8LimbsScientist
Ok, could somebody who studies or has studied karate please answer a question for me?

Why is it that Karate's punches all come from the hips? Why are the hands in the karate ready stance so low?

I cannot leave my hands that low in MT without eating tons of punches and kicks to the head, and I can't imagine that the founders of karate didn't have to worry about getting hit in the head.

Also, in K-1 all the karate fighters keep their hands up like boxers, but the style itself does not advocate this.

This isn't a flame or an insult to karate or TMA, its a genuine question.
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BLACK PANTA
Monkey I think we went through this allready. In Karate you dont have to punch from the hips. That is just one chamber position. You can pull off a "karate punch" from anywhere. It is only for training purposes they keep their fists at their hips, thats why the dudes you see in K1 and such holding a boxing type stance. There are many different stance in Karate BTW.. Monkey if you were to actually join a school and stick it out you would see what I am trying to say.
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8LimbsScientist
Do you know this for sure, or are you just going by your Kung Fu knowledge. Because everything I've ever come across states that the correct form is to come up from the hip. Also, I haven't ever seen a ready stance demonstrated from karate where the hands are held high to protect the face.
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dscott
Panta: I've been wondering this for a while......why do you call 8limbs Monkey?
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BLACK PANTA
Monkey, check it I know from Karate practitioners that it is not necessary to start from hips. Think about it, this is a combative art form, do you think that after hundreds of years they would not figure out that they have to block their faces. Or be at a ready stance. For instance (remember I am just using this as an example) they mimicked karate for Hitomi in DOA3, she is at a ready stance, Ryu/Ken in streetfighter (shotokan). Karate kid ( )
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dscott
Wing Chun has a chambered position as well (fists pulled back near the outside of your chest). But you would never fight like that. That's used only when your going through the forms.
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L_Z Wong_Fei_Hung
WOW LOOK A REAL MARTIAL ART QUESTION Hmmmm Looks like the ppl on this site matured a little bit (No offence 8limbScientist)

I can help to answer this
quote:

Originally posted by 8LimbsScientist

Why is it that Karate's punches all come from the hips? Why are the hands in the karate ready stance so low


The answer is simple but doesn't satisfy most people. They Punch from the hips to train 1)Cordination 2) Power.
quote:

Originally posted by 8LimbsScientist
Also, in K-1 all the karate fighters keep their hands up like boxers, but the style itself does not advocate this.



This is for training purposes, Chamber position leads to more advanced motions.

In conclusion Chamber position is a concept. you're right you'll get your teeth knocked out.It would take a while to explain
I hope I Satisfied your question

If you demand to know I will be more than Happy to tell you, Please PM me if you want to know
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by dscott
Panta: I've been wondering this for a while......why do you call 8limbs Monkey?



Oh I am not good with change, so I still see 8 limbs as that little monkey we all were so fond of His original name was Iron Monkey. It just a lot easier to type monkey that 8limbs.(for me at least)
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L_Z Wong_Fei_Hung
quote:

Originally posted by dscott
Wing Chun has a chambered position as well (fists pulled back near the outside of your chest). But you would never fight like that. That's used only when your going through the forms.



8limb
this is another example of how chamber is used

Wing Chun Uses an Advanced form of getting power in a punch

dscott do you know why you pull back near the outside of your chest. and why would you never fight like that.? do you not know the reason why????
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bamboo
I have also been told that the reason for the chambered punch was a throw back to older times when one would pull a tanto from the belt. Although this may be wrong, it does make some sense.

-bamboo
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pats0
I heard that it was because it trained withdrawing a sword from an enemy in battle. Thick armor i guess
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Hammerhead
Karate was derived from the old chinese southern styles, and one reason for the hands being held low is because chinese martial artists often went for body blows, hence the bridge was often made at the level of the body and, should one be able to defend against the initial attack, the opening for a counterattack would likewise be at body level. This phenomenon may also be seen in many of the stances of pahayuth muay thai, many of which look similar to karate and southern chinese stances - firmly braced, with the hands held out to bridge (ie. to measure and maintain distance).

As we can see, the physical and combative culture have tremendous impact on fightings systems, both in their development and their application. For instance, pahayuth muay will get one smashed flat in the ring. Likewise, toughing out blows from someone swinging a machete at one for real tends to get one killed.
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MA dude
[quote="8LimbsScientist
Also, in K-1 all the karate fighters keep their hands up like boxers, but the style itself does not advocate this.

This isn't a flame or an insult to karate or TMA, its a genuine question.[/quote 
In k-1 most of the karate fighters come from kyoukushin and seidokan which heavily advocates keeping the hands up high. The creator of kyoukushin did boxing and mt so he borrowed techniques. You probaly noticed that the karate dudes throw thai like roundhouses and boxing punches.
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setsu nin to
As Hammerhead said low stance in Karate is part of Chinese roots. Also they make low stance with legs and they "spred" them, so they need to make low stance with hands to protect groins.
There is story that they make even lower stance for people from west becoust they were too tall for them.
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Ninja Kl0wn
quote:

Originally posted by MA dude
In k-1 most of the karate fighters come from kyoukushin and seidokan which heavily advocates keeping the hands up high. The creator of kyoukushin did boxing and mt so he borrowed techniques. You probaly noticed that the karate dudes throw thai like roundhouses and boxing punches.




Mas Oyama (founder of Kyokushin) had no muay Thai experience. His only boxing experience was from one of his students, and that wasn't very extensive.
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L_Z Wong_Fei_Hung
The Stories are great Gentlemen(Ladies)

I say this with all respect but the whole point seems to elude you all
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setsu nin to
MA dude

The creator of kyoukushin did boxing and mt so he borrowed techniques. You probaly noticed that the karate dudes throw thai like roundhouses and boxing punches.

I didnt noticed what you wrote before.
I never heard such thing. Oyama didnt have anything with Muay Thai. Where did you get that?
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Hammerhead
quote:

Originally posted by L_Z Wong_Fei_Hung
The Stories are great Gentlemen(Ladies)

I say this with all respect but the whole point seems to elude you all



Then what, pray, good sir, is the point?

Panta: I think the muay thai influence in kyokushin, if any, and if it did come from any one man, more likely came from that one of Oyama's students who went to Thailand and successfully fought several muay thai fighters in a row. It's unsubstantiated, but he may well have been so impressed by some of his opponents that he incorporated some of the things they did into his karate. More likely, I think it came from numerous and by and large nameless kyokushin students who crosstrain in other systems.
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darkside05
DISCLAIMER: I haven't read all of the replies on here so if anything is repeated here i apologize. Plus I am also writing this at approximately 12:00 at night and i'm pretty dang sleepy. So if i don't make sense, don't worry i'll fix this later.

Ok, to start this off, why did they ever come up with those freaking hip punches? Yes, they leave you wide open for attack, they take longer to do, and can be quite awkward at times; so why were they freakin invented? Well, we have to trace back to ancient Japan for this one. You see, back in the day, they weren't fighting like today, the system was developed for the purpose of fighting and killing the Samurai elite. Now the hip punch was made for the sole purpose of penetrating all that freakin armor that the Samurai were wearing. Also consider this, the hip punch does take longer to do, BUT with all that armor the samurai were wearing, they were also slowed down therefore compensating for the slower punch. Now a hip punch like that would have no use for today because it is highly unlikely you are gonna encounter a heavily armored samurai anywhere on the street. That is why in my dojo we train using boxing style punches, because today, throwing a hip punch would be suicide.

Now for the long stances, once again, it was done for the same reason as above. They helped generate more power, and they also helped in setting up for really powerful strikes. Now the reason they are still practiced today is because these low stances do some serious strengthening. I mean, try doing some of the katas for 2 hours straight and your legs are gonna feel like shiznit. But in a fight today, there would be no use in doing those stances, so of course i'm taught to use more comfortable and mobile stances.

So basically here is the point i'm trying to get across. Fighting has changed over time. Karate was first invented for fighting heavily armored samurai, not Thai kickboxers or Tai Chi experts. Although karate has gone through much change over time to adapt to the new times, we still like to keep these old training tools around to aid in our progress as martial artists. Thats all i have to say on this subject, have a good day or night (whenever you're reading this.)
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Bushi
I was feed that myth as well. There is NO evidence that any commoners used bare knuckle punches against Samurai armor. (unless someone can prove me wrong) I was told this was more legend than fact. I even believe people have tried to duplicate it to no avail.
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Blade
Today's Kyokushin practitioners will have a hard time protecting their faces because theyr used to their own sport where they just stand at zero distance and throw body shots until someone gets tired, its really an iron man competition.

However Mas Oyama did beat thailand's muay thai champion and so did several of his students.
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setsu nin to
When we start writting about Kyokushin I have one question. Whats your opinion on 100 Kumite?
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by Hammerhead
quote:

Originally posted by L_Z Wong_Fei_Hung
The Stories are great Gentlemen(Ladies)

I say this with all respect but the whole point seems to elude you all



Then what, pray, good sir, is the point?

Panta: I think the muay thai influence in kyokushin, if any, and if it did come from any one man, more likely came from that one of Oyama's students who went to Thailand and successfully fought several muay thai fighters in a row. It's unsubstantiated, but he may well have been so impressed by some of his opponents that he incorporated some of the things they did into his karate. More likely, I think it came from numerous and by and large nameless kyokushin students who crosstrain in other systems.



Hey hammer it wasn't me that said Kyokushin had the muai thai influence lol I believe it was MA dude. lol.
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Hammerhead
PAnta: LOL, I know, I addressed that particular comment to him (L_Z_Wongfeihung). The later one addressed specifically to you had your name on it
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li_siao_lung
Ei Setsu....

Are you talking about full-contact kumite? If my understanding of ur question is correct then I say this: It is not logical. Kumite's purpose is to incorporate the concept of patience and control by which a Karateka's skill is measured in a sense. So why bother to create such? I think its a contradiction because if full-contact would be a concept, then why would it be called Kumite or sparring? Besides, participating in a full-contact showdown incorporating the whole concept of "No Rules" would incorporate killing in it most probably so the meaning "full-contact" is automatically cancelled. I am sorry if I offended anyone. Questions are welcomed and will be answered to my best extent of knowledge.

Thank You!
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dscott
Wing Chun Uses an Advanced form of getting power in a punch

dscott do you know why you pull back near the outside of your chest. and why would you never fight like that.? do you not know the reason why????[/quote 

No....why?
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jlambvo
Yeah, sorry Darkside but peasants smashing through samurai armor and all that is pretty ludicrous. I would gladly stick on yoroi and have a karateka go at the chest plate. There are plenty of grappling AND striking methods developed for exploiting structural weaknesses in armor, but none I've encountered involve trying to break through it with bear hands.

At the same time, if there WERE Okinawans fighting armored samurai I doubt their opponents were trying to box them in the face, preferring the old "shiny point thing in your gut" approach, so the kind of guard that works in the ring wasn't necessary... maybe this is a reason? Accessing a weapon at your belt makes some sense too, but the mechanics of the punch wouldn't carry a tanto very well.

I've heard that the original Japanese karateka were much more fluid and relaxed than the stuff we usually see over here.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by jlambvo
Accessing a weapon at your belt makes some sense too, but the mechanics of the punch wouldn't carry a tanto very well.



Unless you grabbed it so the blade is held in an underhand fashion with the edge towards your opponent.
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bamboo

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jlambvo
Accessing a weapon at your belt makes some sense too, but the mechanics of the punch wouldn't carry a tanto very well.
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Unless you grabbed it so the blade is held in an underhand fashion with the edge towards your opponent.



Thank you Des, I tried it out with a tanto in full uniform (hakama et al) saturday to just to check and it works quite well. It was a change to grab to the tanto but after a few tries it becomes quite easy.

-bamboo
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by jlambvo

I've heard that the original Japanese karateka were much more fluid and relaxed than the stuff we usually see over here.



To my knowledge there are many different forms of Karate. Some do incorporate soft fluid movements. To my knowledge Karate is an off shoot of Okinawa Kempo, wich is an off shoot of Shaolin Kung Fu. So it shouldn't be a surprise to know there are soft forms/movements of Karate.
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matrix
hey darkside that whole thing about punching through armor is complete rubbish

its like the whole thing about okinawans going to battle with sword weilding samurai's bare handed

its rubbish
those arent real reasons


the only reason i know for punching for the hip is power generation it doesnt really matter cuz karate has a number of punching techniques and only a few come from the hip. most of the ones u wud use in the street dont come from the hip so whats the problem?

people shud know by now that karate is not so easy to pick holes in or else it wudnt be as popular as it is today

the reason we use deep stances ( i stress deep not long stances) is for two reasons. the first is for strength, the second is as a fighter who relies on striking power a karateka needs to be stable, the lower you are the more stable. you cant move around as fast but we train your footwork to accomodate this. the result is strong stable base from which to execute techniques. look at good karate guys and you will see what i mean. point fighters aside tho some of them are really good and just point fight for the thrill of it

my karate is JKA shotokan. there is a technical commitee based in Japan and they constantly reassess and the art and make necessary changes. this being said there havent been many changes in the last 30 years. all the changes have been subtle.

the art is pretty good i like it anyway
im not really an authority on it but i dont swallow bullshit so i ask a lot of questions myself and have been satisfied with the answers. so if u got any questions i wont bullshit u

keep em coming
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matrix
oh yeh about the hands in the ready stance

traditionally the lead hand is left up to fend attacks to the head and the other hand is kept low incase of takedown attempts. if some one shoots in on you you can give a couple uppercuts before they succeed or get a sweet under hook and revese the takedown if your other hand is kept low in the ready position. more commonly it is used for counter attacks tho.

anyway when your wearing gloves its ok to swing wide cuz you have a great big glove blocking your face from attacks but when bare fist you are open to some sweet head shots so you dont swing as often and there is less of a need to have your hands up to stop you gettin pummelled

also in karate we fight at a distance from each other that is much further away than in muay thai or kickboxing so again your less likely to be pummelled so again less of a need to keep your both hands high

i dont know if this makes sense or not so let me know what u think
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matrix
if we came up against a kickboxer or muay thai we are more likely to hit them before they can hit us because of this distance thing.
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8LimbsScientist
Hey guys, thanks for all the answers.

So, after reading all of these answers a few things come to mind.

I now understand that not all karate punches come up from the hip, but the ready stances?

Hammerhead, you bring up an interesting point about the "body bridging" hand position. Is what you are describing similar to the stance from Choy Li Fut where the arms are outstretched with only a slight bend at the elbows?

How exactly does one fight like that? You are right, it would get you knocked out quickly in the ring, but I'm not sure why it wouldn't be equally as dangerous in the street?

Also, as far as I know Phahuyut is just a more formal word for muay Thai (taken from the Pali-Sanskrit bhahu, "arm" and yodha, "combat") and has been used in a competitive sport at least since the "Lanna" era (1296-1558 AD). Are you talking about one of the more combative forms of Krabi Krabong, or one of the military, bare knuckle styles? Where did you see this style in action?
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8LimbsScientist
quote:

Originally posted by matrix
oh yeh about the hands in the ready stance



Sorry, I hit the submit button before you posted this

quote:

anyway when your wearing gloves its ok to swing wide cuz you have a great big glove blocking your face from attacks but when bare fist you are open to some sweet head shots so you dont swing as often and there is less of a need to have your hands up to stop you gettin pummelled...also in karate we fight at a distance from each other that is much further away than in muay thai or kickboxing so again your less likely to be pummelled so again less of a need to keep your both hands high



Well, if you are facing another karateka, I'll agree that there might not be as many head punches thrown, but if you are fighting a boxer or even some street punk, you are going to get a lot of punches thrown at your head. If its the punk, then a lot of them will probably be wild punches of course.

But here's the thing that jumps out at me. When boxers make the switch to kickboxing they are almost always vulnerable to getting kicked in the head because they are used to dropping their hands down when they get out of punch range. It seems that if you are in a range to do any kind of damage to somebody, then you are simultaneously in range for them to do damage to you, unless your legs are super long. So wouldn't the karate fighter be in just as much danger of getting a kick in the head as the nak muay or the western boxer?
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jlambvo


quote:

It seems that if you are in a range to do any kind of damage to somebody, then you are simultaneously in range for them to do damage to you, unless your legs are super long.



Ahh, the wonderful magic of geometry my friend. I'm sure (or hope at least) that this is in boxing (or any martial art); there are angles you can take that allow you to make a penetrating strike to the opponent while he can't touch you (without moving his feet and giving you time).

The simplest example is in our first partnered exercise, ichiminjo no kata. The opponent steps forward with a high straight punch, you displace back slightly at a 45 degree angle. The "magic" spot is barely outside the arc of his closest arm, but you can rock in with your body and punch him. Height difference doesn't matter much. We illustrated this in class on Sunday pairing someone with an attacker almost a foot taller, it still applied.
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8LimbsScientist
Well I don't mean to say that you must eat a punch in order to land a punch. What I mean is, when you throw a punch, you are in range for your opponent to throw a punch as well. Ditto for kicks. Now you might go through an entire fight and be able to dodge and block every strike and land tons of them, but I'm just saying the possibility is there.

The reason I brought this up is because range isn't an excuse for not keeping your guard up. No one steps into kicking range expecting to get kicked in the head, you step in and throw your kick or whatever, but maybe the guy anticipated or is just plain lucky. Or maybe HE steps in and throws. This is why we keep our hands up at all times.

Maybe I should have put this thread up in Style vs. Style. I think this non-flame oriented style comparison is what that forum should be about.
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jlambvo
Actually, I literally mean that there is a sweet spot (not easy but this iswhy it's called such) and body alignment where you can land a hit (a strong one) and the opponent actually cannot reach you (it has to do with the position of the shoulders and hips as well), but that is beside the point.

I've been speculating on the difference in guards lately as well. We very often will deliberately expose a weakness to the opponent that is too good to pass up (from a position where we can attack if he still chooses not to) and let him believe he will reach it before slamming the window of opportunity shut with a counterattack (which might be responsive, simultaneous, or preemptive timing). Strategically this provokes a commited and well-mounted attack, which has its own weaknesses that can be exploited and turned back on the opponent. In this way, the confrontation can be decided very quickly; it's more like an approach you would use fencing with swords.

A guard and fighting style more typical to boxing and most MMA allows a decent defense while throwing quick probing attacks, either creating an opportunity for a power hit or often bridging into clinch and takedown, followed by a struggle on the ground for dominant position.

You have to consider the context in which the former strategy developed. On a battlefield with thousands of armed combatants, you don't have time to circle around testing for an opening. The process still sort of occurs, but it's compressed into a brief moment. One vs. multiple or multiple vs. multiple will get messy quick no matter what, and there simply isn't time or room to engage that way, especially when weapons are thrown into the mix. It opens you up to danger much more directly, but in a way you have to accept you'll likely be killed in the melee anyway and at least this gets it over with more quickly. (Also, the minor injuries you would indure in something more like boxing could mean your life when you fight the next guy/s.)

This is why muto-dori gata is so important: sword and spear evasion drills. You must get used to having deadly objects coming at you while wide open and getting out of the way when the attacker believes he'll hit you. Developing this skill gives you the time in a fight to analyze an attack enough to circumvent and exploit it.

The problem is when people who've trained this way try to fight like boxers or some unholy marriage of the two.

8limbs, I totally agree with your sentiment. Best style vs. style thread i've read yet
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8LimbsScientist
See thats whats funny to me to because we are all pretty much studying ways to do the same thing. While we go about it differently, we are all trying to learn how to oppose another human being physically.

What do you think about TMA fighters adopting a boxers defense (for striking) or developing an unholy marriage of the two ( )?

I feel that on the street most people go after head shots. Most fights I've seen the principle target is someones head, either for punches, bottles, chairs, etc. I feel this necessitates having your hands up near your head to intercept these strikes.

The problem is that in real life we don't have big 12 oz. gloves on to pad our faces, and even if we manage to block a punch with our fists, it either gets through anyway or else we end up punching ourselves. Thats why I like the Crazy Monkey defense from Rodney King of SBG.

I feel like TMAs would have developed something along the lines of Crazy Monkey due to the fact that they never were developed around big cushy gloves. What does Budo Taijutsu do as far as blocking strikes to the head and where do you leave your hands when you are in a confrontation?

Also, anyone from any other style feel free to answer the above question.
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jlambvo
I have never seen a hard block in Budo Taijutsu. Our "block" is simply to move out of the path of the strike--any contact with the offending appendage is actually an attack (usually a bonus): striking nerves or joints to damage/incapacitate the limb, trapping/capturing, or redirecting it to affect the opponents balance (or any combination thereof). This methology allows you to quickly take the initiative from a safe position.

We have many kamae/postures, and although we do not do forms (beyond the simple five movements of the sanshin ) most techniques can be broken down into transitioning between these kamae (Shinden Fudo ryu doesn't physically adopt kamae at all, but does so internally... hard to explain).

The foundation kamae is ichimonji : Your feet are about shoulder width apart, the knees relaxed out to sink the hips (which should be free to move around), situated so that your weight is being supported almost entirely by the tendons and joint positions rather than leg muscles. The left (lead) foot is forward toward the opponent, the right (rear) is 90 degrees to the side. Sometimes the right will be angled more forward depending on the attitude; the 90 degree alignment is more open but is easier to confront multiple opponents as such.

The left hand is extended as a shuto sword-blade fist about the position you would use to shake hands (so the muscles are mostly relaxed) pointed at your opponent's heart and the right is held in front ofyour heart or resting in the crux of your lead elbow. The idea here is to hold your arms like a spear and shield; the lead hand posts out and must be circumvented for you to be attacked. Attempting to drive through someone in this kamae will run the the lead hand into your throat.

If you don't know what muto-dori gata is, I suggest you try to pick it up somehow. The drills we do include: person(a) holds a sword overhand (training and especially padded ones will do though I recommend something potentially lethal at some point) and person(b) stands before him in a normal standing posture. (a) swings the sword (as well as he can) with the full intention to hit (b). (b) must evade with body movement such that (a) cannot readjust the swing OR hit his target with a followup attack. A more advanced version is to have one or both walking toward each other, and more difficult yet is to walk toward each other but thrusting with a spear (much harder to see the movement). This is how you get used to getting out of the way. *Any* attack is ultimately on an arc or moving in a straight line.

In the kata I described, you attack by starting in the ichimonji posture on the right side and stepping forward into the left side version but making the proper fist. The lead hand can move or block defenses and protects you from simultaneous strikes. Because we hit with footwork and moving from kamea to kamae, you are balanced and defended the whole time, you can wait until the last moment to chosoe your target and fist, and you have already entered once you've hit and as such can capitalize on the effects immediately.

I would honestly put up the postures we use against a boxer, but you have to fully put your trust in them and make sure you know how to hit well. The most common problems I see with these postures are letting the arms and back collapse, a tendency to throw the spine forward (so you can fall forward as you miss) and an extension of this a poor understanding of how to ground one's self upon impact. The few times I've applied this striking against a boxing stance, the punch might be blocked but it caves in the person's posture and I can immediately followup with other attacks.
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FHATODude
what's the "Crazy Monkey Defense"?
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Hammerhead
Sorry I didn't answer your questions earlier, 8Limbs - I clear forgot about this thread for a few days. Good to see that we have a good discussion going here.

jlambvo and yourself have covered many technical details here, so I'll just zoom in on the Chinese angle. The CLF stance you're talking about is rather...unique to CLF and has its own uses - CLF fighters generally take a side stance with both hands up in a sort of loose boxing guard, which again is quite unique in southern styles, which tend to face an opponent square or half-square. The typical karate/southern chinese stance I was thinking of was more of a square or half-square (that is, facing an opponent squarely or half-squarely) stance of varying height. The thing to remember is that many stances aren't static positions per se, but rather transitional postures, particularly the ones with the hands held in a low guard. Those actually represent attack or post-attack postures to teach the proper bracing to transfer power. In fact, it's not strictly true that all karate and southern Chinese stances and guards are low, but it is certainly true that there is usually one hand held low to guard the body, usually the rear one. As it was mentioned earlier, many of the stances in kata are there for training purposes rather than direct application in fighting per se. The actual fighting stances are based upon the same principles as the training stances, but aren't entirely the same. In fact, the typical traditional fighting stance has one hand outstretched to between half and three-quarters arm's length to bridge at either mid or high level while the other is held back to guard the body and wind up for committed attacks - I personally like use stances like this. It is interesting to note that the old bareknuckle boxers used similar stances to this as they didn't have the benefit of 12 or 16oz gloves, which meant that covering up against an attack meant huge holes in one's defence.

Likewise, karate punches all derive power from the hips, but they aren't necessarily always cocked back to be launched from hip level. However, the short, jab-like punches of traditional karate are done with the same intent and body mechanics as the fully-cocked hip-launched punches - this aspect is well-demonstrated in the kata shisochin and sanseru, among others, which involve throwing short snap punches out with an emphasis on hip motion. In that sense, you could say that the jabs in traditional karate are far more committed than, say, a boxing jab, which is a probe and combo opener, at least as used in today's boxing. Again, it's interesting to note that the primary offensive weapon of the old bareknucle boxers was a jab, which was done entirely different to today's jab. Rather than an annoying peck to fluster an opponent and reveal holes in his defence, it was executed as a massive smash over a short distance with the fighter's full bodyweight packed behind it.

In the end, I suppose this highlights the mentality behind karate/Ryukyu kenpo more than anything else - it yields very little and relies very much on committed attacks aimed at ending a fight as quickly as possible while minimising any exchange of blows that might take place. Like any other martial art, sound in theory, but if said karateka whiffs or can't take an opponent out in a few good shots, oh gawd... But there you go - that's the essence of karate - ikken hissatsu .

The low, braced stances build the strength and endurance necessary to make fast, committed lunging attacks that throw the full weight of one's body into an attack. Ideally, the karateka either throws the first attack (for the record, I say "bullshite" to Funakoshi's famous saying, "There is no first attack in karate"), catching an opponent by surprise and seizing the initiative, or else counterattacks the moment an opponent attacks, either way taking advantage of an opponent's moment of vulnerability to bring as much power to bear as possible in a few good shots. At least, that's the way it's meant to be Just a little more seriously, this is a characteristic not only of karate, but of many, if not most Chinese styles, north and south - they are often strongest at the onset of the engagement, since this is the point they are built to dominate, and tend to decline in effectiveness the longer a fight wears on, at least against an opponent who is capable of reading what his opponent is about to do.

Speaking of pahayuth, I was referring to the traditional battlefield styles taught to soldiers - a Thai friend of mine once showed me a few techniques showed to him by a master of muay who trains in a park near where he lives in Thailand, and there was a definite strong southern Chinese influence in many of the techniques used.

Regarding the point about smashing through armour, I don't find it quite so outlandish. There was only ever one style of full plate armour used by the Japanese and that was do yoroi, which came into existence late in the Sengoku period and was only ever used where firearms were expected on the other side. All other forms of yoroi were built as much for mobility as well as protection and, as a result, were not very effective at resisting crushing and blunt impact, which is a characteristic of all flexible armour. Good yoroi could keep out swordcuts fairly well, but a good blow from a tetsubo or konsaibo would more than likely displace lamellar plates and at least spill the coffee on the inside, so to speak. Even the hara-ate, or chestplates, weren't all that solid and heavy - they couldn't be if a warrior wanted to move around. With that in mind, someone whose fists could smash solid granite could conceivably put said fist through a few layers of lamellar. Even if he couldn't break the armour, the man inside would certainly feel much of the impact
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darkside05
Lol, as if you couldn't tell, i made that last post pretty late at night. But i'm glad you made that observation matrix. When it comes to punching through armor, i sincerely doubt it myself. But that was what one instructor (not mine) mentioned once before. Basically our ideas are based on the same principles though, the punches were for power. Sorry for sounding dumb back there. Thursday night, i'm gonna ask about the whole story behind the hip punches and see what my sensei says, considering i know he is very educated on all this stuff. Again matrix and all others who said that was bull and rubbish, thanks for the observation .

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darkside05
OH and one more thing...... PLEASE PLEASE don't call pink belt on me! We all have bad days. I was just going on what i had been told. So PLEASE don't make me a pinky!
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FHATODude
what do you mean by "loose boxing stance' (have a pic?)
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Hammerhead
By that, I mean loose as opposed to tight, referring to the hands held up at a distance from the body as opposed to very close to the face, the latter of which is the norm in gloves-on matches. And there are several prime examples of this posture here: http://www.unlicensed2000.com/earlybareknuckle.html
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The way of the Samurai: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:35

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: The way of the Samurai

BLACK PANTA
Article on the way of the Samurai

The Way of the Samurai
The development of the samurai in ninth-century Japan occurred when the centralized aristocratic government lost power to the local landowners who employed their own armed forces. The heads of these armed forces were known as the "bushi" or "samurai", and were for the most part descended from the old clans (ujis). The samurai gave their society moral values and acted as sentinels of peace. The warriors followed their own code of ethical behavior known as bushido, which remained orally transmitted for generations. The following text was written in the seventeenth century by a samurai who had become a Zen Buddhist monk.

The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either /or, there is only the quick choice of death. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim. We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a dangerous thin line. To die without gaining one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling.... Being a retainer is nothing other than being a supporter of one's lord, entrusting matters of good and evil to him, and renouncing self-interest. If there are but two or three men of this type, the fief will be secure. Loyalty is said to be important in the pledge between lord and retainer. Though it may seem unobtainable, it is right before your eyes. If you once set yourself to it, you will become a superb retainer at that very moment.... The person without previous resolution to the inevitable death makes certain that his death will be in bad form. But if one is resolved to death beforehand, in what way can he be despicable? One should be especially diligent in this concern. If one were to say a word what the condition of being a samurai is, its basis lies first in seriously devoting one's body and soul to his master. And if one is asked what to do beyond this, it would be to fit oneself inwardly with intelligence, humanity, and courage. The combining of these three virtues may seem unobtainable to the ordinary person, but it is easy. Intelligence is nothing more than discussing things with others. Limitless wisdom comes from this. Humanity is something done for the sake of others, simply comparing oneself with them and putting them in the fore. Courage is gritting one's teeth; it is simply doing that and pushing ahead, paying no attention to the circumstances. Anything that seems above these three is not necessary to be known. As for outward aspects, there are personal appearance, one's way of speaking and calligraphy. And as all of these are daily matters, they improve by constant practice.

Basically, one should perceive their nature to be one of quite strength. If one has accomplished all these things, then he should have a knowledge of our area's history and customs. After that he may study the various arts as recreation. If you think it over, being a retainer is simple. And these days, if you observe people who are even a bit useful, you will see that they have accomplished these three outward aspects.

Source: Tsuentomo Yamamoto, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai, trans. William S. Wilson (NY: Kodansha International, Ltd., 1979) 17-18, 20-21, 33-34, 66-67.
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Bushi
For someone who is into Kung Fu (chinese Art) you sure have a thing for articles about Japan's Warrior class.


Not that I am complaining.
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BLACK PANTA
I know I kinda find it wierd myself bushi. I love Kung Fu and I do equal research on Chinese history aswell. Mostly Hui culture history, I have always been fascinated with Samurai, ever since I was like 12. I try to follow Bushido as best as I can now. There are a lot of similarities between Islam's code of honour and Bushido's. I'm not kiddin myslef or anyone else I know and admit that it is difficult to follow Bushido fully, but the struggle (jihad) is IMO and honourable one.
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setsu nin to
Bushi

I will tell you one seacret, but dont tell it to anyone.
As everybody know Panta have Sifu Cat, but noone know that he also have Samurai Dog.
(Sorry Panta I couldnt resist)
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setsu nin to
Well just to add something about Samurais...

As moust of us know sword was main and moust respect weapon of Samurais. Well it wasnt that all the time. In the begining main and moust respect weapon by Samurais was bow.
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small article on Ronin: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:31

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: small article on Ronin

BLACK PANTA
Ronin -- Masterless samurai

"Ronin" is the Japanese term for a masterless samurai and is written with the characters for 'floating' and 'man', i.e., a warrior adrift with no lord to serve nor stipend for income. During the late stages of the Warring States period and early years of the Edo period, many samurai were thrown out of work when their daimyo or feudal overlord lost his status because of defeat, had his domain taken away or reduced in size, or was relocated to a smaller domain. With no master, the ronin and his family had to seek alternative employment. At the time of the Battle of Sekigahara, it is estimated that there were as many as 400,000 ronin.

The problem with these men was that they were armed and out of work. They had a reputation for getting into trouble; for joining local squabbles, for turning to banditry, for falling into the world of theater and entertainers. They also flocked to join whoever raised the battle flag and needed additional fighters to swell his armies. In short, they were a source of social and military instability. For example, when the Tokugawa shogunate decided to attack and destroy the Toyotomi forces at Osaka in 1615, as many as 100,000 ronin are thought to have joined the Toyotomi. Even though a similar number probably joined the Tokugawa forces, the existence of such a large number of men with swords and no anchor encouraged the shogunate to limit the number of ronin by refusing permission for samurai to abandon their masters and become ronin. With peace and stability, the number of new ronin decreased as the economic need to earn a living forced many to abandon their swords to take up farming, commerce, or manufacturing. By the second half of the 17th century, the problem had largely disappeared.

At the end of the Edo period, ronin became prominent once again. Many of the opponents of the Tokugawa shogunate adopted ronin status so that they were free from the constraints of loyalty to their lord and could roam the length and breadth of Japan acting against the Tokugawa in concert with like-minded individuals. Some daimyo even ordered a few retainers to become ronin so that the anti-Tokugawa movement could be supported without incriminating and endangering the domain.

In the 20th century, the word was used to refer to adventurers and nationalists who were active in promoting Japanese interests and expansionism on the Asian continent: these were the China ronin or the Asia ronin. After World War II, the term became restricted to students who failed their university entrance examinations and decided to study further with the hope of passing the exams and entering a university the following year; they are not in a regular high school and are therefore "masterless".

Ronin are a favorite subject of romantic literature. Their lives were exceptional, especially during the stability of the Edo period, and could be used to explore themes like loyalty, love or the plight of an able but low born individual. One of the most famous stories about them is the 'Forty-seven Loyal Ronin' who avenged their lord's death by killing his enemy. Since theirs was an illegal vendetta, they were ordered to commit suicide and were buried at Sengakuji temple near Shinagawa train station in Tokyo, about two miles beyond the end of the Nakasendo where their master was also buried.
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Arjun
Panta: where are these articles coming from? Are you writing them? I would like to use them as articles if you got permission from the author or if you are the author. What say you?
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BLACK PANTA
These are not my article Arjun. These are article I have had in my bookmarks for a while. I keep them when I read about these stuff. I like to knowledge myself in this stuff. Now that there is a Martial Art History forum I felt selfish not sharing these article with you all. So I posted them Sorry dude, it was not my intention to take credit for these articles. I usually post the source i guess the last couple didn't have one.
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA


there was also problem with Samurais, so just to add few words about that.

In the period of peace there was big problem with too much of Samurais too. Wors were not so often and they didnt have nothing to do moust of the time. Ofcourse when I say "nothing to do" I mean battles and thing like that. Lords needed Samurais who would be there in case of war. It was prace time, but before every war is time of peace. If Daimyo had 500 Samurais in the time of peace he needed for protection moust 50 of them so 450 "didnt have nothing to do".

Widouth job they sarted to do diferent jobs, same as Ronins. moust of them worked for govermant and become office workers, clerks, teachers of poetry, history, painting...

There were many of them who stayed in martial arts world. Some of them teached martial arts nobel members of sociaety, some open schools, some traweled round the Japan learning and teaching martial arts, some even went to China...
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

the characters for 'floating' and 'man'

I even didnt noticed it when I read post first time. Are you shure about "floating", isnt that "wave"?
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BLACK PANTA
I would imagine it would mean floating. To me it makes more sense.
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bamboo
Having just checked with a japanese speaker, she told me that the accepted translation of ronin is wave men .

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

As I remember Ronin means wave man, but maybe I am wrong. Well I am not shure anymore. I will check it.
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Samurais death: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:26

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Samurais death

setsu nin to
In these post I would like to explain relationship between Samurais and death, becouse I noticed that some people have wrong about it.

"I found that way of Samurai is death." These are words of Jamamoto Cunetomo and his words says all about end of Samurai. Samurais were in searching for death, death was moust important thing for them, becouse moust important thing for them (honour) often depeded on death. With death they could lost of get back honour.

Samurais realise that mother of all fears is death, and if you whant to lose all fears you have to lose fear from death. Thats way Samurais were learned from when they were born to not be afread of death.
Now someone may say that it all depende on individuals and things like that. Well many things depende on individuals, but its prooven by psychologic that we can influence on developing of individuals. For example if you separate child from mother for first week when child is born, these child will never be emotional conected with his mother and femily as that they stayed together for first week. So first week is moust important for child to develop emotimns to his mother and after the family...
Its important to say that thing that they didnt take death (they own death) as something negative much helped them to losse fear from death.

So Samurais were learned from when they were born to not be afraid of death, also what is real important is thing that they were prepareing for dearh every day for all life.
They knowed that they will have to die and that it wont be natural death, one thing which proove that is fact that it was shame for Samurai if he become old (by old I mean thet he is so old that he cant fight anymore and he is still alive). In many cases it way interpret as the he way coward and that he was hiding from death.

As I said death was one of moust important things for Samurais. Everything depende on it, but what many people interpret wrong is who Samurais died. Thats main reason why I decided to start these thread.

Samurai couldnt just do something wrong and then take seppuku-to and end of all his problems. He couldnt just take sword and attack 50 anemyes and died that way. Acording to Bushido Samurais had strict rules about death, also they had rules which death is honour and which not.

Here are some examples of honour and not honour way of deth.
When Samurai died on bettlefiled his body had to fall foward, becouse its proof that he was attacking. If his body fall back it was unhonour way of deth, becouse it proof that he was pulling him back.
When Samurai was makeing Seppuku his body had to fall foward too.
It was unhonour to get kill in combat just to die. Same it was unhonour for Samurai to attack more anemyes when there was no chance to survive if there was no need to do that. Inazo Nitobe wrote about it and put as a point diference between madnes and honour death. Ofcourse in situation that Samurai had to protect his master or that he was alone (becouse he couldnt run from combat, it was unhonour) against 10 anemyes that it was honour to attack them and died.



Samurais were prepared for death all their life, form they were born to death. First they were prepared to death by family, than by teachers/masters and in the end by themselfs. One of main symbol of Samurai class was flover of cherry. You may finde it in almoust anything conected with Samurai. They weote many poems to that flower, they pot it as symbol on clothes, even on sword, they compared themselfs with flover of cherry, becouse cherry folwer "pass away" when its moust beautiful, when its moust stronger same sa Samurai who pass away when he is young and moust stronger.
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RoninMMA
I can only imagine how bloody the battles the samurai fought were. Take a whole bunch of guys not afraid to die, and have them attack each other. There must have been a lot of causalties.
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BLACK PANTA
being not afraid to die makes you a more valuable warrior. However if they do die it would be a dishonour if they were to loose the war/battle. The role of the retainer is to protect his master and he has to live in order for the master to live. If he dies his master stands a chance of dying aswell and that would not be liked by the retainer. So instead of fighting for life they fight for honour. Honour is worth more than life.
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setsu nin to
If master died Samurais (Ronins) had to revenge his death or made Seppuku. After Seppuku becouse of heath of master was "forbiden", but there are many examples of Seppuku becouse of death of master.
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bamboo


quote:

many examples of Seppuku becouse of death of master.



The most famous of course being the "47 ronin". They still do plays about the incident and have preserved the wooden boards with their blood on them.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

I realy like that story, exelent example of Samurais/Ronins loyalty.
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balance
i never new that samurais were very fond of the flover of cherry,it makes good sense to me now.thank you for that setsu nin to
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setsu nin to
balance

Yes, they realy liked cherry flover. There are still beautyfull gardens in Japane where you may finde cherry threes.


Also outfitt for tea was very important to them. To some Samurais it was same important as sword.
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reverse edge katana: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:25

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: reverse edge katana

BLACK PANTA
Is there such a thing as a reverse edge Katana. I know there is a double edge and should be conceivable to have a reverse edge. But how would you use that sword. How would you perform *Iaido and Battou jutsu with this blade

*Iaido is one of the Japanese traditional Budo concerned with drawing the blade and cutting in the same motion. (Budo means martial arts or military arts in Japan). A typical form consists of the draw and cut, a finishing cut, cleaning the blade and returning it to the scabbard, all without looking away from the imaginary opponent.
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8LimbsScientist
No there is no such thing as a reverse edge sword. Ever since the popularity of Rurouni Kenshin (sp?) plenty of people have gotten all excited about the reverse edge sword, but no reputable swordsmith will waste time making one.

For one thing, the structure of the blade is not meant to take an impact on that other side. There is just no way to make it useable. If you were to have one made it would only be for aesthetic purposes as a keepsake. But you could never actually use it in battle. Not that people use katanas in battle these days, but you know what I mean.

Did you hear about this sword from the anime Rurouni Kenshin or Samurai X? Its about this samurai who wants to live a life of peace so he created the reverse edge sword so he couldn't kill anyone unless he really needed to. In reality, if you had this sword you couldn't kill anybody no matter what
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Arjun
8Limbs is correct.

It is metallurgically impossible to create a 'Sakaba' (reversed edge) katana that would hold up in battle. Let me explain:

A katana is a wonderfully durable sword for its size. This is because the process of differential forging gives the blade a harder edge and a softer spine. The hardness of metal is measured in Rockwells, or RC's. Most katanas hold a 60-70 RC edge and a 40-50 RC spine. The edge is harder so the blade wont dull, and the spine softer to absorb shock. You may think that you would end up with a softer edge in a reversed blade, but who cares right? The whole point is that you wont be using the edge much. But no, it is impossible to heat treat a katana to give higher RC's to the thicker side than the thinner. You would get a sword with the proper RC placement, higher in the edge and lower in the spine. That would make the sword brittle, since the spine (now that the edge is the spine, on the reverse blade), would be very brittle. Your sword would crack.

But it wouldnt even get to that point if you wanted the sword folded. Folding the sword (forging the metal in folds, hammering the blade back on itself many times over again) makes it many times stronger (not to mention way more expensive). Every katana for most of the reign of samurai was folded. The problem here is that in the folding process the structure of the katana doesnt allow for any curve unless it curves back on the thicker, dull side. This same problem arrises even when a blade is not folded. The shape and process of forging a sword demands for the edge to be forward. Which means you couldnt make a folded reverse blade sword, if even just for looks.

Your last problem would be price and willingness of the sword smith. Even a non folded sword, as I said above, with a reverse edge, would be nearly impossible to make. You would probably end up with a dull blade that would be extremely hard to sharpen, a lumpy frontmost part, and terrible customization of the handle. And the swordsmith would still demand a hell of a lot of money. I used to apprentice for a smith for a short time, its extremely hard work even for your average non folded katana. This project would leave you with a sword that could only be used for display, but that would be too ugly to display, and a huge bill.

Oh yeah, the tsuka (handle) would be another problem. Most blades carry their edge down into the tsuka, or atleast into the habaki (metal part between the tsuba and blade). If the edge was reversed it would bite into the metal and wood, and may cause a lot of damage not only to the blade, but to one's own body (but again, you could never fight with a sword like this, therefore you wouldnt have to worrty about that).
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BLACK PANTA
"Few mortals dare to journey to the dark shores of the Imperial Sea to challenge the ancient master that dwells there. An old man, he has spent his lifetime protecting and studying the ocean's essence and is said to be able to alter the tides and summon the dreaded beasts of the deep. A man of mystery, he has been challenged by many, and lost to no one. His legendary skill has surpassed even the knowledge of the most experienced masters, each returning home bruised and battered from his reverse blade. His weapon of choice, the oldest of the Godaiyou Swords, a sword with a reverse blade that is simple yet elegant, claiming it's beauty from the depths of the ocean. "

found it from this link now I know this sword is not combat capable, and it is only an ornament, but Arjun you said it would be difficult to make this sword even if non-folded. this sword isn't folded, and here it is........ and it is mass produced.

http://www.weaponmasters.com/index.html?ID=2a1095b0f51ebf52c61f21a374d425e1&ITEM=WM-2180

Just for arguement sake these swords may have existed and used at some point agreed? I would guess thats where the story came from? Don't think I'm falling for BS but this just made me curious.
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BLACK PANTA
here I found a forged reverse edge katana and an explaination as to how it would've been used

http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/r2044.htm
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Arjun
The first one is stainless steel, so you cant use that as an example. Stainless steel is crap, you are seriously better off with wood. Stainless steel swords are not real swords. Given a choice to enter a fight with a sturdy wood stick or a stainless steel sword i would pick the stick. Hell i would pick half of a stick.

The second is probably the same. By 'Hand Pounded' they mean fed into the air hammer on the assembly line by hand, not hand forged. Nor does it every say its folded. Ritter Steel is also a crap brand. Go to www.swordforum.com and ask them what they think about ritter steel. They will tell you that they are shitty even for decoration pieces. Just look at the dimensions. The blade is 27 inches long, but the whole sword is 38 inches long! How can this be done? There is no tang. Its a rat tail instert, Ritter still is famous for using less than 1080 carbon steel and pouring it into a mold, then, so they can say its 'Hand Pounded' fed into air hammer machines. They say all their swords are 'Authentic', sure, and about every blade on each one screws into the tsuka. No real sword smith would use such commericalized and flamboyantly gay fittings, nor would they use rat-tail tangs in any sword.

But I am sorry, I thought we were talking about real swords here. Since by your stainless steel examples it is obvious we arent talking about real swords I will add to my above post:

If you want to run the very high risk of using a extremely brittle and unstable metal like Stainless Steel you can make any shape sword you want. But let me emphasize that it is impossible to forge a functional and authentic katana with a reverse blade.
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Arjun
LoL I like the silly stories that come with this SwordsOnline site. These guys push their shitty replicas like drugs. Like shitty drugs!
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Arjun
Hah! This site has Cloud's buster sword from Final Fantasy 7.

Actually thats kind of a rip off. This place is like those sweat shops that make purses, sew the Gucci label on to it, and sell for hundreds of dollars. They didnt buy the rights to Rurouni Kenshin's sakaba, nor to Final Fantasy's sword(s). They are making money off of other great things that they had no part in. Plus they are selling really low grade products. Its not like its a coincidence either, they all but say where the designs originated from. Fuckin Canadians.
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

Sorry Panta, but bouth swords are 100% crap. If you whant to buy real sword than you will have to pay it at least $6000 - $10000. And for that price ($200) you cant buy even real tanto.

Reverse edge Katana dont exist same as double edge Katana. There are four main diferent cainds of Japanese sword (acording to material and how to put that material in sword) and ofcourse there are rules how to make it. So they dont make any of these two cainds of sword. Blade is just on one side. Ofcourse you can buy fake Katana with two blades, you may buy pink Barbie Katana if you whant, but is that real Katana?

When we talk about katanas just to say how many people think that katana is made just from hard iron. Thats wrong. Hard iron is noly outside and inside is soft iron, thaty why Katana wont breake easy.

If anyone is interesting I could make new thread about it and try to explain it.
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Blade
I Agree, to buy a real sword you have t pay alot, i believe this site sells actuall combat blades : www.ColdSteel.com
but still not a real traditional katana which i believe only a few families in japan are "offical" on this matter and the order would take months and a very big pocket...
My uncle showed me a real hunting knife he bought in russia and said it's made from the same steel that the cylinders of a car engine are made... or something like that...very strong
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Arjun
quote:

Originally posted by setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

Sorry Panta, but bouth swords are 100% crap. If you whant to buy real sword than you will have to pay it at least $6000 - $10000. And for that price ($200) you cant buy even real tanto.



Actually, nowadays there are good forges that mass produce quality folded katanas for around a thousand US dollars or less. Of cours if you get really high quality it will run you around three thousand dollars or more. Paul Chen does some nice pieces, both in his own line and for www.bugei.com. All the blades are hand forged 1080 carbon spring steel, differentially tempered, and folded to create 2 thousand or more layers. The problem with this is that, as I said before, they are mass produced. You could get a lemon and have to go through the trouble of sending it back (if the company you buy it from even allows you to). You also dont have the personal care given to each blade like you would if you found a smaller forge or a single smith. Chen even does unfolded hand forged pieces, still incredibly nice for the price, for as low as 200 dollars. With this all you are really getting is the blade. You get all the fittings, but they are not detailed and arent of very high quality. In any case you should never buy stainless steel, and if you are going to spend 200 bucks on a katana why not buy a real one?
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Arjun
Its actually against Japanese law to export katanas from Japan.
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bamboo
Arjun

Is that all katana or just "treasures" or swords of historical significance?

-bamboo
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Arjun
I think all swords, though Im not sure how well its enforced. I do know that Paul Chen has to operate from china because of it.
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BLACK PANTA
No I was talking of real swords. I just used these replicas as reference. since I haven't yet seen a real folded reverse katana. I guess such a thing would not be good to use. That confirms my doubts.
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8LimbsScientist
quote:

Originally posted by Arjun
Hah! This site has Cloud's buster sword from Final Fantasy 7.



Which site? I would like to see that!
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Iron Knuckles
Setsu,

I would definately be interested in more information on this topic if you were to start a new thread.
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setsu nin to
Arjun

I saw it on bugei.com. They have some interesting things its good site. I wasnt there for long time.

Problem with these swords is becouse they are made from one same part of iron. Ofcourse when I say sword I bean blade.
Some of them are created from more than one caind of iron, they are generaly better but not enought in my opinion.
Real problem here is becouse these swords dont have Tamahagane and they dont have it becouse blacksmith have to do it by themself and its realy hard to get it. Also its expensive becouse to get 2,5kg you need 10 kg of iron sand and 12 kg of charcoal.
Also big problem is becouse in Western style smelter which works by coke ironstone is melted on 1500 degrees and becouse of that it become fragile.

So in my opinion these swords have nothing with real swords. You can use them as suvenir and thats all. They can be usefull in Iaido where you dont have blade on blade contact, but in Kenjutsu they are realy dengerous.

Noone would made real swords for $200 becouse whan you take all material and time that you meed for it than you realise that $200 isnt enought to made it.
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

If sword is real it dosent mean 100% that its good. some people buy broken blades of real swords, repare it and than sell it again. problem is in structire of Japanese sword so you cant repare it as good as it was before.

Every real Japanese sword have written certifications and also it have to have kanji marks on the end of the it. On these marks (sword and certificate) is writte who made the sword, when, how...

I have list of that kanji marks that may help you to read it. if you are interested just PM me.
There is not much of it just for some 80 pages
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bamboo
Setsu

Would that book be Japanese Swords by Nobuo Ogasawara?

If not, this is also an excellent reference.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
Its actually against Japanese law to export katanas from Japan.

From what I know some people who are dilers, they go to Japan twice a year and nuy them. They dont have any problems with that.
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setsu nin to
bamboo

No, its not book, its just list of kanji marks that you may finde one the sword. And its no all. Its just one part for about 2000 diferent kanji marks.

There is much more.
Dates and regin names have for about 200 diferent kanji marks. Here you have also to learn dating, than about zodiacal zating that 60 kanji marks more...
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BLACK PANTA
Spoke to my Sifu and he said that the reverse blade katana was pretty much a myth.
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8LimbsScientist
quote:

Originally posted by BLACK PANTA
Spoke to my Sifu and he said that the reverse blade katana was pretty much a myth.



OH! Ok, I guess NOW its settled.
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

Well as I said before, you cant made reverse blade Katana by way that Katanas are making. Same you cant made two side blade Katana.
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Arjun
Its illegal to export blades from japan, but you can go buy them and transport them out.

Setsu I dont understand you. All these blades are made out of steel, not iron. Extremely high quality steel also. Sweedish powedered 1080 spring steel -- It costs about 120 dollars per unshaped bar. Thats a lot. You get an unshaped bar of top quality 1080 spring steel for around 10-20 bucks tops. This sweedish stuff that Paul Chen uses is ten or twelve times more expensive.

Its a real high quality forge. The Chen forge does is like its always been done. They will even take requests, quench your blade in oil instead of water if you like, give you bo hi or no, whatever you want really.
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by 8LimbsScientist
quote:

Originally posted by BLACK PANTA
Spoke to my Sifu and he said that the reverse blade katana was pretty much a myth.



OH! Ok, I guess NOW its settled.



WTF is this supposed to mean bro.
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8LimbsScientist
quote:

Originally posted by BLACK PANTA
WTF is this supposed to mean bro.



LOL, no disrespect meant. I was just joking around cuz we all knew they never existed and Arjun pretty much proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But if Sifu Cat thinks they didn't exist, then I'm even MORE sure.
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setsu nin to
Arjun

Its illegal to export blades from japan, but you can go buy them and transport them out.
You mean that some shop cant buy 500 of them to sale it in Europe or US?

Similar thing is with steal, becouse they are made from one part of same steal. They are made from hard steel and thats why they will break.
I agree that Sweedish steal is exelent, I like it very much too, but problem is how they made swords.
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

There are reverse blade sword and double cutting edge swords that were using by Samurais, but thats not Katana. Katana is something totaly diferent.
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Ninjas vs Samurais: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:24

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Ninjas vs Samurais

setsu nin to
Pls dont start with flame war.

There were few discoussions on forum about Ninjas vs Samurais, who is better, who will win... so I decide to start these thread to clear some things about Ninjas and Samurais.

In my opinion moust important to say when we discoussed about Ninjas vs Samurais subject is that they had different purpouse, they were comited to diferent codex, their metods was diferent, philosophy too...
For example. If Ninja was used as messenger and on his way he had oportunety for some caind of duel (even if someone challenge him) he was not allowed to exep it. On other side same thing would be moust unhonour for Samurai.

There rules were not created that way becouse one was more brave than other or something like that, these rules were created that way becouse of their porpouse. Samurais were worriers and they had to look poverfull, they had to be respeced and people had to be scared, they were something like half gods. Thats why they couldnt to not exept the duel.
Ninja in these story, which is just one example, had to skip duel. Why? Becouse there was a chance that he lose duel and if he lost it anemy would get his message.

So who were better? In my opinion it depende for what you need them. If you need some spy who knows alot about poisens than Ninja is better, if you need worrior and exelent fighter for combat than Samurai is better.
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RoninMMA
Yes it all depends on the situation. Most Ninjas were not used out in the open. They were used under cover. Most times at night, or under cover of bad weather. Sometimes in the day, dressed in disguise. If a Ninja was caught in the open, by a Samurai. The Ninja most likely was taken down. The same thing goes with a Samurai letting his guard down during a storm or what not. He wasn't paying attention, or whatever the case. The Samurai was game for a quick kill by a Ninja. The main thing was, Ninja were primarily assassins, where as Samurai were elite open field warriors. Now to get to the one on one fight. It also all depends on the rules. If it was weapon combat with a sword. I myself would have to go with the Samurai. Only because I feel that the Samurai would have more training in that area. The sword would be important for the Ninja but not as much, for he deals with a lot of close quarter work. If this one on one fight was unarmed, well that would be a tough decision. The Ninja would probably be faster at strikes, and more lethal with strikes as well. The Samurai were more trained in the grappling arts like Jiu-jitsu, yet had strikes as well. Hmm...that would be a good fight. On unarmed I might have to go with the Ninja.
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holyTC
whoah. i saw something just like that. i was walking down my street one day, and in the middle of it a samuari and ninja from 500 years ago happened to meet EXACTLY in the middle of MY street. they also happened to be pissed at each other and were equally skilled in all combats related to his/her art. a fight began to ensue when i suddenly suffered a massive seizure and cracked my head on the pavement. then i realized how all the ninjas and samuaris died of fallout from the atomic blasts in WW2, and the ones then were even highly obsolete. eh to bad...
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Bushi
Those ninja scholars on this board can probably answer this question. (This gives a for instance to Setsu's thread).

In the movie "The Last Samurai" a team of Ninja attack a clan of Samurai at night. Now prior to the attack one was spotted and the Ambush style attack was revealed thus destroying the super element of suprise the Ninja had. My question is, do you think the Ninja would still conduct a force on force attack like in the movie or would they have retreated to regain the element of suprise at a later date? For those who have not seen the movie...Sorry.
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RoninMMA
I haven't seen the movie yet. But don't worry, I ruined it for myself long before you did. I couldn't stop looking into it. Anyways I guess it depends on if the Ninja can successfully pull back. If they knew that they had been spotted early on, then I believe that they would have pulled back. That way they would have the chance to try again later. Of course if they were spotted and they knew that they couldn't pull back. I guess all they could resort to was a fight for survival and try their best to get out of there.
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setsu nin to
RoninMMA

Well I wouldnt agree about that night, bad wether, disguise... all of these are muvie stories and have nothing with truth. Moust of Ninjas were working as retailers or some caind of shopkeeper, it was exelent way to get many informations and to exchange informations. So They were using as spys and moust of the time they were working during the day.
There were Ninjas who were use as some caind of security, But they also didnt use face cover moust of the time, and its not truth thet they attacks only in night or something like that.

Ninja were primarily assassins, where as Samurai were elite open field warriors
I wouldnt agree to that too. Samurais were same good in open field combats as in combats in some close space (hous or something like that.

Now to get to the one on one fight. It also all depends on the rules.
There was no rules!!!

The Ninja would probably be faster at strikes, and more lethal with strikes as well
Could you explain that?
All that thing that Samurai would be better with sword and Ninjas with striking... is looking on the subject with wrong view in my opinion.
You cant say that Ninjas were better strikers or Samurai that were better using sword.
As I said they had diferent purpose and as worriers Samurais were better which is historycal fact and Ninjas were better as spys, in using poisens..., which is historycal fact too.
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Arjun
While most samurai were trained and lived in the same matter, saying ninja is like saying karate or kung fu. It is a very general term.

Historical ninja are, for many reasons, clouded in mystery. It seems to be their forte, mystery that is, even after extinction (historical ninja as people I mean, not the art of ninjutsu).

It is really a frustrating topic, and even though I studied these arts I still do not have a clear understanding of the history, nor do i believe that anyone alive really does.

The theory that most ninja were Ronin, ex-samurai whos masters had been killed or overrun, is generally accepted as a fact, but it is believed that the people that we now call ninja came about before the samurai class even came into existance in Japan.

Because most ninja living in the time of the samurai were probably ronin there comparing these two groups can be difficult, if not impossible. This comparison involves even more factors than a style vs style thread, and we have far too little information.

A ninja vs a samurai? Which ninja? Which samurai? At one point in history? At what location in japan? Too many questions and too broad of a subject.
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Mixed artist
Sheesh what is with this thread. Lets just get Masaki Hatsumi and whoever is one of the best jjj fighters and have them duke them out empty handed then have a weapon match between a top kendo/iado person fight Hatsumi
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RoninMMA
Sounds good to me
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Hengest
I agree with Arjun. What the ninja were is still a mystery and one that may never be solved. It's impossible to say ninja did that, samurai did this, especially when you bear in mind that some of the most famous "ninja" in history were samurai. Contrary to popular belief, the two classes weren't mutually exclusive; a samurai that was adept in techniques of unorthodox warfare and espionage would also be thought of as a ninja.
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setsu nin to
Arjun

A ninja vs a samurai? Which ninja? Which samurai? At one point in history? At what location in japan? Too many questions and too broad of a subject.

Dont take it wrong. Point of these thread wasnt who is/was better, my point was that Ninjas and Samurais had diferent role in the past. Comparing Ninjas and Samurais is same as that someone whant to compare CroCop and Lewis. But Lewis is Boxing fighter and CroCop is MMA fighter. Lewis is better in Boxing and CroCop is better in MMA. So who will be better depende on for what do you need them, Boxing or MMA.

I agree that some of Ronins become Ninjas, but I wouldnt agree that moust of Ninjas were Ronins. If that theory that moust of Ninjas were Ronins is truth than all theory about Bushido is fake. So one or other theory, these two theoryes cant go together.

I wouldnt agree that there is no moust informations about Ninjas. In my opinion (and I dont whant to start flame war now) moust informations about Ninjas are wrong. Some respect Ninjas wrote kids books as Ashida Kim, some give fake Soke titles to themselfs as Ronald Duncan and some gave unimportant and sometimes contradiction informations which may be interesting only to beginers as Hatsumi. Dont take me wrong when we talk about Samurais arts than its even worse. There are so mane fake "traditionaly" Samurais schools. Every idiot claim to teach some Samurai school today. List of fake "Samurais" is much longet than list of fake "Ninjas".
Thats in my opinion biggest problem of bouth arts. Its realy hard to finde good, truth and important informations. In case of Ninjas thats the reason why is there so many "seacrets".
In other way "seacrets" in Ninjutsu are used as comercial. All that "We dont know nothing about Ninjas" and "Noone cant explain who are Ninjas" storyes are moust comercial. Well moust, I dont say that these is no seacrets in Ninjutsu, but they go little to far with it.
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Arjun
On the point of most ninja being Ronin: Samurai were taught nothing besides the arts of war and politics for their whole life. They were the warior class, they knew nothing else. Many times in Japan a master would die or would disown his samurai, thus they would be masterless (Ronin). What job opportunities would these ex-samurai have? They knew nothing besides fighting and warcraft, and the only accepted war class in Japan was the samurai.

Of course there are those we might call ninja that are, as hengest said, merely samurai with skill in espionoge and stealth tactics being deployed by their leige lord. This is something entirely different, because these ninja are still samurai as well. Then there are the freelance ninja, masterless and probably, from what information we have, made up of Ronin or even unloyal samurai. One reason why the ninja were so despised and thought unhonorable by the samurai and the rest of JApan.
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setsu nin to
Arjun

Samurais have knowledge in many things. For example they have knowledge in literature and writting, so the could work as teachers for kids of nobels or as scribe which was good payed job in that time. Also they had to learn much about medicine, so they could work as healers which was good payed job too.
But moust of all they could work as officers. Its known that moust Ronins and Samurais in the time of peace becone officers.

So that didnt had any reason to become Ninjas. But thay had real important reason to not become Ninjas. They learned how to live according to Bushido for all live, they had rules. Ronin which become Ninja had to throw off moust important thing in their live, something which was much important to them that their own lives, moust important thing for them - Bushido.
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Arjun
If you are surving a purpose, or a master, even if you are performing the duties of a ninja, you are still living with bushido.

You contradict yourself Setsu, you say no samurai would live without bushido, but then you go and say that they would become healers or teachers to children. And while you may retain a lot of rules of bushido when doing this, I dont believe, given the choice, someone of the samurai class would take up a career as a scribe, secretary, apprentice healer, etc.
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setsu nin to
Arjun

If you are surving a purpose, or a master, even if you are performing the duties of a ninja, you are still living with bushido.

Samurais and Ninjas rules are contradict, acording to Bushido Samurai cant be Ninja. If Ronin become Ninja he dont follow Bushido any more.

When Samourai become Ronin there is no more master, his only commited to master could be kataki-uchi and thats all. There is no rule in Bushido that dont allowed Ronin to teach.
And ofcourse in earlyer period there were no Ronins, becouse Samurais had to do Seppuku after their master died.
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setsu nin to
I forgot one more thing.
Moust of Ronins and Samurais in time of peace become officers, and you may finde information about it in almoust every Japanese history book. And here is proove that they didnt give up from Bushido, becouse it was still forbiden to them to become retailers, while moust of the Ninjas who were working undercover were retailers.
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paa069
Ninjas all the way! There was a battle between ninjas and samurai and the ninjas were 1 to 10 samurai. The ninjas won. The ninjas didnt fight at all like hollywood shows. I recommend yall buy some Hatsumi books and the one i just finished reading called The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art by Stephen Hayes. This book tells some history about ninja and samurai. Afterall, didnt the samurai die out, and ninjas didnt?
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bamboo
Would Yamabushi also be considered ninja or a separate enitity unto themselves? I think if we were were to include the Yamabushi into this group then the fight would take on an entirely different light as they trained not only in combat but also had esoteric rites likened to the ninja or atleast my perception of the ninja.

-bamboo
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Arjun
quote:

Originally posted by paa069
Ninjas all the way! There was a battle between ninjas and samurai and the ninjas were 1 to 10 samurai. The ninjas won. The ninjas didnt fight at all like hollywood shows. I recommend yall buy some Hatsumi books and the one i just finished reading called The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art by Stephen Hayes. This book tells some history about ninja and samurai. Afterall, didnt the samurai die out, and ninjas didnt?



I hope your joking....
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BLACK PANTA
Sumrai didn't die out. Only the clans system. Their way of fighting, and Bushido philosophy still lives. They just dont ride on horses and fight war in Japan, cuz no more war to fight in Japan.

This is to my knowledge, if I am wrong please let me know your knowledge to the fact.
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george stiles
i'm looking at this in a modern day perspective CIA field spook vs a navy seal

i think this is the same comparison in a modern day aspect
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setsu nin to
paa069
Thats just what I didnt whant here.

george stiles
i'm looking at this in a modern day perspective CIA field spook vs a navy seal

Well yes, that could be comparation, but in my opinion Ninjas cere something more than CIA field spook is today and Samurais were more than navy seal today.
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Hengest


quote:

Ninjas all the way! There was a battle between ninjas and samurai and the ninjas were 1 to 10 samurai. The ninjas won. The ninjas didnt fight at all like hollywood shows. I recommend yall buy some Hatsumi books and the one i just finished reading called The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art by Stephen Hayes. This book tells some history about ninja and samurai. Afterall, didnt the samurai die out, and ninjas didnt?



Ladies n' gennelmen,

I think on the basis of that statement alone, paa069 is a worthy candidate for the pink belt.
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Iron Knuckles
Man... It must keep Matt on his toes, awarding all these Pinkies...
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*Gong*Sao*
quote:

Originally posted by Hengest

Ladies n' gennelmen,

I think on the basis of that statement alone, paa069 is a worthy candidate for the pink belt.



If you consider that he asked whether Bruce Lee could beat a ninja in another thread, I concur.
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george stiles
what i was trying to do with my comparison was say that i felt by comparing the ninja and the samurai i felt it was a strange comparison you r comparing a spy to an army soldier. or a small group of gorrilla warriors to regular army units. IMO they both have a system of martial arts is one style far superior than the other? i don't think so. so this brings me to the same conclusion that is usual with the style vs style flame wars it depends alot on the individual fighter. if they r of the same age height weight and general athletic ability with equal amounts of training between the samurai and the ninja its anyones fight

don't mean to affend anyone this is just how i was thinking about it
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Arjun
My point is that in many, if not most cases they werent even different groups of people. Ninja were probably made up mainly of samurai. Those who werent samurai wouldnt be able to really compare. The samurai were the only people allowed to fight or to wage war... peasents who wanted to learn the way of war would have a very hard time. You would get killed for even owning a weapon or practicing any type of warfare. So not only would they not have the far superior instruction the samurai would have total access to, they would have to do all their training in secret.
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8LimbsScientist
Samurai were the only people allowed to fight? That doesn't seem to make sense. I don't know much about Japanese Military History, but I thought the Samurai were basically like Cavalry or Infantry and that the peasantry would be drafted as foot soldiers.

Also, it would seem to me that your average army would consist more of peasant foot soldiers than elite Samurai.

You guys haven't really been mentioning a few things that I thought were true about Ninjas. I always thought that there were "clans" of ninjas that lived in the mountains and that they were involved in a large scale guerilla style war with the Samurai and their masters. Is this fact or fantasy.

Were the Samurai and Ninja enemies? Were the Ninja "free agents" or were they ideological?
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Arjun
They werent your average army.

For most of Japanese history the Samurai class ruled all. They could not own land, but they owned rights to everything else. For just about as long as the Samurai existed Japan was like this. The Japanese and their history is very unique in such things.

"You guys haven't really been mentioning a few things that I thought were true about Ninjas. I always thought that there were "clans" of ninjas that lived in the mountains and that they were involved in a large scale guerilla style war with the Samurai and their masters. Is this fact or fantasy."

This is fantasy. Many ninja, as Hengest pointed out, were just Samurai ordered to perform espionage. Many more were Ronin samurai who worked more like hitmen than anything else. But since the Samurai were the only warior class for most of history it is more than likely that almost all ninja are or were samurai.
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setsu nin to
I am just interested where I may finde more about that theory that moust Ninjas were Ronins. If that theory is truth than all about bushido is wrong.
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Bushi
Not that I am some sort of Ninjutsu/Ninja scholar but I never heard of the Ronin Ninja connection until I started coming here.
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Arjun
Bushi: Ronin is the term used to describe a samurai that has no master. Like one who's master has been killed.

Setsu: How does the way of a ninja conflict with the way of the samurai?

The best argument for the theory that most ninja were samurai or Ronin is the ninja's skill level. They had to be either, and we know that most ninja were 'for-hire' wariors, therefore samurai with masters would not be this type of ninja.

Like i said in another post; what else could ninja be? Farmers? Merchants? It would be nearly impossible for these people to train in any effective manner under the rule of the samurai. Again, they would have to do so with insuffecient trainers (only samurai could carry or practice with weapons, therefore only samurai were teachers, and it would be at risk of death for a samurai to teach those arts to any who isnt a samurai himself), and they would have to be secretive with it all.
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setsu nin to
Arjun

Ronin couldnt become Ninja becous on honor. When Samurai become Ronin he dont have master any more, but he have to live under rules of bushido. Bushido is moust important for Samurai same as for Ronin. While for Samurais and Ronins was moust important bushido (and acording to that honor) for Ninjas was moust important mission. So on first place for Samurais and Ronins were honour and for Ninjas were mission. Samurai could faild the mission, but he had fo faild in honourible way, honour was befor mission. Ninjas had to do anything to finish mission and they were allowed to do many things which were unhonorible for Samurais and Ronins.

You may finde many examples of that. Just for example Ninjas were allowed to wear short sword in sheath of long sword. It maybe dont sound as something important, but it was trick. In duel Ninja could pull sword much faster becouse he had short sword and Samurai would use long sword. In moment when they start pulling swords Ninja had big advantage.
Ninja wasnt allowed to exept challeng if the had to do some mission. So if Ninja had to send some message and on his way someone challeng him he had to skip the duel becouse mission was on the first place and every duel is risk to faild mission. There are much more of examples.

There is one more interesting thing. If Ronin had his sword for "all" his life as moust pressure material thing. If he was ready to kill anyone becouse he/she just touch his sword. Do you realy think that he would leave his sword?
Tsuba on swords that Samurai and Ninjas used is different, so we can say he kept his sword and just change tsuba, but toshin is diferent too. Why would he replace his sword if his sword is better? All proces of making swords that Samurais and Ninjas used is diferent. Its much easier to make Ninja sword and its not qualiti as Samurai sword, but you may make it quicker than Samurai sword.

Many things about Ninjas are wrong interpret. For example things like invisiblity, flying, disspearing, when same ninja is few pearsons... today many people talk about it as something magic, but its wrong. Same its wrong when people say that Ninjas didnt have hings like that.
Story about Ninja who is one time old man, one time saler, one time some stranger in the town... That is not magic and dont have anything with that its just art of disguise and nothing more.
When Ninja is invisible point is that you cant see him or that you dont know who he is. So it can be that he hide that you cant see him or that he become your friend spying you and that you dont know that he is Ninja for example.
Ninjas didnt disspear like we can finde in muvies or in moust book, it was just art of hiding and thats all. They learned how to hide from you.
Ninjutsu is full of diferent tricks and thats all.

You asked what else Ninja can do?
Well there is so many things that Ninja can do. moust of Ninjas did diferente jobs in their life. Its not truth that they were just worriors. Moust of Ninjas were send to diferent parts of Japan to spy, so they would go there and open shop or something like that and start spying.
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bamboo
I read that ninja were also refered to as "KUSA" (sp) or grass, because they would immerse themselves into society and wait until being called for duty. They would work as normal people and none would be the wiser to their activities, training would be handed down from generation to generation in secret.

Of course, this is mostly speculation since we have no real records of ninja other than use during battle.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Well I agree that they worked as normal people, but they were Ninjas all of te time. They never come widouth any reason in some place and start working some normal job.
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BLACK PANTA
can someone confirm this. I heard that the way of the Ninja actually began in China. That would explaing the legend of the Iron Monkey.

Now dont jump all over me if I am wrong but can you prove this statement to be true or false?
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RoninMMA


quote:

Ronin couldnt become Ninja becous on honor. When Samurai become Ronin he dont have master any more, but he have to live under rules of bushido. Bushido is moust important for Samurai same as for Ronin.



It is very unlikely that a large percentage of samurai, lived their life by bushido. I am sure that a large number followed some aspects of it. However in a way it was just an honarable idea. Now don't flame me or anything. In Europe at the same time, there was the idea of Chivalry. A code very similar to Bushido. Even though it represented what a perfect knight should be, very few knights were able to live it. Such is why there are many tales of brutality by knights. Just as there are the same brutal stories of the Samurai. So even though we would all like to think that all Samurai followed Bushido, it just wasn't a reality. So once a Samurai became a ronin, it is safe to assume that he did whatever he wanted.

p.s. Note the bold print. I am not saying 100% of all samurai. I am saying "that not all samurai". There is a difference so don't flame me.
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Bushi
Arjun- I know what a Ronin is my name is Bushi

RoninMMA- To say that because a European Knight did not live up to Chivalry is reason to doubt that Samurai lived up to Bushido is an uninformed statement. I am not flaming you just Sharing.

The Code of Bushido and The Code of Chivalry are as far away from each other as Fascism and Communism. The Samurai were obsessed with living up to the Code so much so they had to outlaw Seppiku because it was getting out of hand. The Samurai ate, sleep and dreamt Bushido, it was all he cared about. If you read any literature written during the Fuedal times you will be utterly convinced. Chivalry was more of a "Mission Statement" and Bushido was oxygen.

-Bushi
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RoninMMA
Chivarly and Bushido are not as far apart as you think. They are basically both codes of conduct of life. True they are from different cultures. However they both are examples of ideal warrior philosophies. To expect that all Samurai were 100% commited to it is what is uninformed. Again everyone must read that bold print of mine. We must step out of romance and into reality. Of course historical literature may tell of great samurai. But then again there is historical literature that tells another story. I never said ALL samurai felt short of Bushido. I said some did not follow ALL aspects of it, and maybe none of it. Human nature plays a part. For example there is an unwritten attitude that you don't go around killing people, stealing property, and being a general dick. However there are those that do that. And I know there are those out there, that don't see how that compares to Bushido. Well it does, on a different scale. On the Seppuku subject. It did somewhat get out of hand, but more closely the main reason it was banned in 1868 was due to westernization. The Meiji restoration started to erase its Samurai past. And the ones who were doing it were at one time Samurai themselves. The Meiji government which was made up of many educated Samurai, pulled Japan into modern times. These ex-Samurai broke up feudal estates, confiscated castles, ended payment pensions, and took the tradition of wearing swords from the samurai. That is one of the main reasons why seppuku was banned. It represented an old tradition in a Japan that was trying to be seen in Western eyes as modern and civilized. That is why there were a lot of revolts in the 1870s. There were those samurai who felt betrayed at the Meiji for not bringing back the old tradition of warrior based rule. Yes yes for those that want to prove a point, I have heard about the general and his wife that commited seppuku on Emeror Meiji's funeral in 1912.

Hey I love the ideas of Bushido myself. I think it is great, and I love the history of Japan myself. But then we must all understand history and realize that not everyone was perfect. I am not trying to flame anyone, we just have to realize that there were some Samurai jerks out there. Just like there are some asshole dirty cops out there. And those cops would love for us to believe that they "serve and protect". Anyways I am going to wrap this up, cause my back is killing me. (stupid chair) Since Zen is in part with the Samurai. Then wouldn't Zen be telling us that the past doesn't matter, neither does the future. All that matters is the present, for in the present there are no illusions.
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Bushi
If my memory serves me right the practice of Seppuku was outlawed in the 17th century by Ieyasu Tokugara, who founded the last great Shogunate dynasty in 1603.

Either way I agree that history is Shrouded with optimistic eyes but the Samurai mentality can still be seen in Nihon Bussiness pratices. A great book on this whole subject is "Bushido: the Soul of Japan"
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

I heard that the way of the Ninja actually began in China
I dont know nothing about that theory, never heard about it.
Maybe point was that martial arts come in Japan from China, or about Ninjas in China.



RoninMMA

It is very unlikely that a large percentage of samurai, lived their life by bushido. I am sure that a large number followed some aspects of it. However in a way it was just an honarable idea.
I cant agree with you. You have to put it in contest of place and time, and ofcourse it would be nice to use aproach of sociology.
You have right to call them brutal, you may even call bushido brutal, but it doesnt mean that they didnt been honourible. I supouse that you didnt read much about bushido. Acording to bushido Smurai can kill his firstborn son just if he touch his sword, for moust people today Samurais were brutal, bushido was brutal and honour was brutal too.
Sorry, but you missed the point.
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Arjun
Bushi, my apologies I just skimmed your post and i thought you asked what a Ronin was.

Setsu: I believe your information is partially fiction or fantasy. The idea that ninja were secret groups and families with training traditions and were loyal only to their mission and whatever is is mainly faslse. The clans and villages that were dubbed ninja in the first time we see it in history were regular people who did not obey the shogun or leige lord and had to hide, go underground (not literally), to vanish, in other words. After this any samurai who learned stealth or espianoge tactics and applied them FOR WHATEVER REASON, would be dubbed a ninja (if they were discovered to do such things). They were considered unhonorable in some cases because many were practiced in assassinations. Not even that that is unhonorable on it own, it only frustrates and angers the enemy, therefore they arent going to speak nice words about the ninja. And, what little history we have of them, is not written by themselves but by those who were victims of them.

Not only are those things you mentioned wrong about ninja (flying, invisibility, etc) but probably 98% of what just about anybody knows or thinks they know of ninja is false. Hollywood hype, innacurate histories, incomplete histories, and so many other factors obscure the little true information we have.
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RoninMMA
Its more like you keep making the "point" from your side of view. It seems you lived a past life and met every single samurai that ever lived. From the experience of past lives, you knew that every single samurai followed Bushido to a tee. So I am going to ask you 2 questions. You are saying that there is no doubt in your mind that every single samurai that has ever been in existence followed Bushido word for word? You are not for once going to possibly consider that some where at there some samurai decided to walk a path that led them away from Bushido? If you answered yes to both of these, then what is the point of you opening up threads, and having a debat. When you keep a close mind and refuse to believe anything that is posted.
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RoninMMA
The previous was addressed to Setsu. Sorry if I caused anyone else to get pissed off.
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Arjun
LoL, i didnt know who you were talking to at first.

I can give many examples of documented actions that samurai have taken in the past that go against the code of bushido and having it frowned upon yes, but not punished. Like Ronin said, its a code of honor that probably was hardly followed to a tee. Similar to the bible, where maybe a few certain types of religions believe in every word, most take it as a whole and a guide, not a standard. A bad anology i know, but im trying to post this and do like 4 other things at once.
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bamboo


quote:

If my memory serves me right the practice of Seppuku was outlawed in the 17th century by Ieyasu Tokugara, who founded the last great Shogunate dynasty in 1603.



It was one of the forms of seppuku called "junshi" or "following in death" that was originally condemned in 1616 by the first Tokugawa shogun. After his grandson Iemitsu died, 5 of his top retainers broke the "law" and committed seppuku as well. It was again attempted to be banned in 1663 but was broken within 5 years by retainers of the Okudaira house. The family of one of the retainers was then in turn forced to take their lives because of the sins of the father. Junshi then stopped until 1912 when, the emperor's general Nogi and wife committed suicide to follow the emperor in death, much against his wishes.


I found this information in Japan, pre history to modern times by J.W Hall and in The samurai sourcebook by Steven Turnbull

bamboo
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Arjun
Ah, i didnt completely read Bushi's post about Tokugawa Ieyasu's ban on seppuku. What bamboo says is true. The ban was hardly enforced, if ever at all. It was somewhat like the ban on christianity in Japan. It was created to serve one single purpose or cause then not used after. The thing is, it was common political move to keep bans in place, even if they were not necessary, as levy or just out of convenience.

Oh, by the way, i thought that form of seppuku was called Oibara. Maybe Im mistaken or maybe there is more than one term for it.
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george stiles
it seems most every one is saying that the ninja were samurai without masters. So in the samurai vs ninja question isn't it the same as who is the toughest black belt in your given dojo

and as for fighting arts being forbidden this is historical fact but that the peasants didn't listen is also fact that is why we have the nunchaku(rice flail) the kama( grain sicle) and many of the other everyday items that were turned into weapons. fighting was forbidden by slaves later in history so they hid there martial arts in there dance
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Arjun
George: I will address your post from bottom up.

There is a difference between slaves disobeying and Japanese disobeying. While it may be true that the code of bushido wasnt comepletely adhered to by all samurai, the Japanese view on death and disobedience was and is a LOT different than any other culture is or was. Every human has a primal fear of death, but to the Japanese death lived in their hearts as a truth. There was only one punishment for any crime: death. The samurai ruled everything, they could kill any non-samurai just to test their blade.

Honor was a thing of family and liniege. A slave would do something forbidden at risk of a beating, a japanese risked not only his life, but the life of his entire family, from his mother to his children, it was common for a whole family of heads to be taken to pay for just one family member's crime.

Yes, there still was fighting among common men, therefore yes, some small aspects of arts or weapons were developed because of this. But it would be very uncommon, if not unheard of, for large groups of people to participate in elite training of any kind.

It would be easier if everyone in this discussion look at ninja as a position, a ranking of sorts, not a certain group of people.
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*Gong*Sao*
I could be mixed up here, but I was under the impression that most of the "secret" martial arts practice as well as the use of common items as weapons came about during the Japanese occupation of Okinawa, occurring among the Okinawans, and not among the Japanese lower classes. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?
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Bushi

quote:

Originally posted by bamboo


It was one of the forms of seppuku called "junshi" or "following in death" that was originally condemned in 1616 by the first Tokugawa shogun. After his grandson Iemitsu died, 5 of his top retainers broke the "law" and committed seppuku as well. It was again attempted to be banned in 1663 but was broken within 5 years by retainers of the Okudaira house. The family of one of the retainers was then in turn forced to take their lives because of the sins of the father. Junshi then stopped until 1912 when, the emperor's general Nogi and wife committed suicide to follow the emperor in death, much against his wishes.


I found this information in Japan, pre history to modern times by J.W Hall and in The samurai sourcebook by Steven Turnbull

bamboo



Either way my point is vindicated..I was trying to show the ban pre-dated the Meiji Restoration and well I was right
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RoninMMA
Wow I didn't know that the ban started that far back. It was the Tokugawa shogun that first outlawed training and the use of weapons among the general populace, or was it another shogun? Why would the Tokugawa want to contain seppuku anyways?
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Arjun
No it wasnt the tokugawa shogunate. Weapons and warcraft were reserved for samurai for hundreds of years previous, although there are a few very short periods of time where a lord will call on regular people to fight when he lacks troops (this was done once, maybe twice and lasted for months only).
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bamboo
Arjun: Oibara and junshi seem to be interchangable. The funny thing is I find Oibara in english sources and Junshi in most french sources with the exception being the two I cited.

quote:

Either way my point is vindicated..I was trying to show the ban pre-dated the Meiji Restoration and well I was right



Even more right than you may know, I have found other refernces saying that the ban on this form of seppuku went back even further but none can give a solid date except those left by the Tokogawa legacy which were firmly written down.

I think the spirit of the samurai definatly still lives on in hearts of the Japanese. You can see this in business practices and simple day to day interactions between people. I would say one of the most astonishing acts of modern seppuku was that committed by Yukio Mishima in the Japanese parliament on nov. 25th 1970. People are still speculating as to why the nobel prize winning writer killed himself at the height of his carreer.

-bamboo (I think I'm addicted to researching this subject now thanks to you all! )
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bamboo


quote:

Why would the Tokugawa want to contain seppuku anyways?



It was not seppuku or hara kiri that they wanted contained, just one form. Following your lord in death meant that his heir would lose the most loyal and valuable of retainers and that in turn would weaken the family.

Ritual suicide was still a very common thing used as both an honourable death for failure in duty or even for use in treaties. In making peace, one might demand the death of a daimyo to show good faith.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
Arjun

The idea that ninja were secret groups and families with training traditions and were loyal only to their mission and whatever is is mainly faslse.
Sorry but I didnt writte about Ninjas as seacret groups or searcet familiy. What I wrote about it on the first page of these thread was:
In other way "seacrets" in Ninjutsu are used as comercial. All that "We dont know nothing about Ninjas" and "Noone cant explain who are Ninjas" storyes are moust comercial. Well moust, I dont say that these is no seacrets in Ninjutsu, but they go little to far with it.


The clans and villages that were dubbed ninja in the first time we see it in history were regular people who did not obey the shogun or leige lord and had to hide, go underground (not literally), to vanish, in other words.
How than you can explain Oda Nobunaga?


After this any samurai who learned stealth or espianoge tactics and applied them FOR WHATEVER REASON, would be dubbed a ninja (if they were discovered to do such things).
Well about that Ronin or Samurai become Ninja.
Acording to the Bushido every Samurai who do something unhonourible or was captured... could make Seppuku to become honourble again or if Seppuku was not enought to show that there is still some of honour in him. Why than Samurais or Ronins, if they were Ninjas in same time couldnt do that. If Samurai try to kill his own master he had chance to make Seppuku, but if he was just Ninja he couldnt do that?
Whe Samurais captured some anemyes who was not Samurai or Ninja they would joust kill them, if they captured other Samurais they give them chance for Seppuku, but if they captured Ninjas they would torture them for three days.
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setsu nin to
RoninMMA

It seems you lived a past life and met every single samurai that ever lived.
Sorry, but I dont remember anything from my past life.

you knew that every single samurai followed Bushido to a tee
Realy? And where I wrote that "every single"?
As I can see I wrote in discousion about Ronins:
I agree that some of Ronins become Ninjas, but I wouldnt agree that moust of Ninjas were Ronins.
And now writte these very carefully. Every discousion between you and me in these thread stops here. When you learn something about the subject than you may informe me and we can discouse again, but while you cant say nothing more than idiotic things that you already said we wont have any discousion here.
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Nice post.
YEs, it was forbiden to make Seppuku becouse the master died, but examples of Sepuku we can finde even in modern history of Japan. In modern history in some cases they didnt use Seppuku-to for Seppuku. Like Tod who shoot himself to not be captured by US army, but he survived. After two big shames (he was captured and he didnt died) he decide to not do it once and to save his honour he said on the cort that he is guilty for everything that cort acoused emperor.



Arjun
The samurai ruled everything, they could kill any non-samurai just to test their blade.

Thats right, they could kill everyone who is lower than they are widouth any explanation to anyone. But im many cases they wouldnt kill just to kill becouse it was unhonor to kill some kid or old man widouth any reason. Truth is that they could finde reason for almoust everything.
Its interesting that if lower rank attacked higher rank in the army with sword (for example), higher rank was not allowed to defende himself with sword, becouse he had to be able to defende just becouse he is higher rank.
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RoninMMA
Setsu since when can you decide what makes something idiotic? Just because you have a black belt on this site. Just because you post a lot. So just because you have been here longer, you can reject everyone's opinions as you see fit?
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setsu nin to
I dont whant to be misunderstud so I will writte it again. My point here isnt to say that Samurais were better than Ninjas or that Ninjas were better than Samurais. My point is that they are diferent, they werent used for same thing, moust of the time. They were specialised for diferent things and that why there is no better between tham. Samurais were better for one thing and Ninjas were better for other thing.
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ScottBaioIsDead
All right i see a lot of misinformation here and i'll clear this up. Ninja is more like an occupation not a class like samurai, in fact most ninja were samurai hence having a first and last name. The whole idea of the ninja "code" contradicting bushido is logical, IF ALL SAMURAI FOLLOWED BUSHIDO. The fact is when samurai were needed bushido wasn't too popular it's more like something for times of peace in times of war the main concern was survival, and the way to win was through deception, all samurai knew this because as was mentioned before they had to study literature specifically the chinese classic which includes sun tzu's art of war. The fact is you can't say samurai would beat ninja in a fight because blah blah blah, they were the same people just doing different tasks a samurai could perform ninja tasks so could a jizamurai, so could a peasant, in fact some believe the firts ninja to be an emperor of japan who disguised himself as a women to sneak into the enemies region. Though there's no concrete proof of ninjutsu's specific origins. Basically you need to look at it this way if a samurai is ordered to do something he can't say no that would contradict bushido if he followed it thus he would have to kill himself for disobeying his master but he would put higher priority in following what he's told than his own moral obligations. As for the comments on ronin being ninja once again ninja is a job anyone can be one as long as they train in ninjutsu. Though i should say ninja don't exist anymore people who train in ninjutsu nowadays aren't ninja, in fact the term ninja didn't even exist until ninja died out, there were a variety of terms that were very specific to the tasks performed by ninja. sorry for writing such a jumbled post i didn't really think it through i'm just writing off the top of my head feel free to ask about anything i missed.
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setsu nin to
ScottBaioIsDead

Well I agree with some things from your post and dont agree with some of them.

Ninja is more like an occupation not a class like samurai
I wouldnt say for Ninjas that that was occupation, they were more like some caind of society.

The fact is when samurai were needed bushido wasn't too popular it's more like something for times of peace in times of war the main concern was survival
Roots of Bushido and all codex is much oldef than period of peace.

The fact is you can't say samurai would beat ninja in a fight because blah blah blah, they were the same people
They were very diferent people in my opinion.

in fact some believe the firts ninja to be an emperor of japan who disguised himself as a women to sneak into the enemies region.


Though there's no concrete proof of ninjutsu's specific origins.
Ofcourse there is, you just have to finde it. If you cant finde it on internet it doesnt mean that it doesnt exist.

As for the comments on ronin being ninja once again ninja is a job anyone can be one as long as they train in ninjutsu.
Its not truth that anyone could become Ninja.



It was not so easy to become Ninja and it couldnt become anyone. It wasnt brothel so that anyone may come in and out whenever he whant.
Ninja is general term so you have to look at it from more views. If you look at Ninjas from view of Oda Nobunaga than you look at them as worriors, if you look at than from view od Takamatsu then you look at them as spys, if you look at Ninjas from view of milion of 10 dan masters today who earned 10 dan in few years than you look it as one big circus.
Also you cant look at Ninjas as worriors widouth Hakuho and Christian revolt later...
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bamboo


quote:

The fact is when samurai were needed bushido wasn't too popular it's more like something for times of peace in times of war the main concern was survival, and the way to win was through deception, all samurai knew this because as was mentioned before they had to study literature specifically the chinese classic which includes sun tzu's art of war



Umm, bushido means "way of the warrior", it definatly extended onto the battlefield. I think you may be confusing peace ettiquette with war ettiquette. For example, when the mongols first attacked Japan the samurai called out thier name and issued a challenge in the standard manner as dictated by the way of the warrior. They of course were killed by a barrage of arrows. This is documented. Survival is part of bushido, if you fought for your lord you did so representing him in both a proper and brutal manner. Doing what it took to defend the honour of your lord in war would not have been against bushido, infact, it would very much be a part of the "code".

quote:

Basically you need to look at it this way if a samurai is ordered to do something he can't say no that would contradict bushido if he followed it thus he would have to kill himself for disobeying his master but he would put higher priority in following what he's told than his own moral obligations.



Would not his lord know very well what he can and cannot order his retainer to do? For a lord to order his retainer to do something viewed as contradictory to the way, he himself would be a disgrace. The loyal retainer would instead commit seppuku in protest to the orders given, thus aiding his lord in making proper decisions by showing him the error of his ways.

Lots of samurai practiced Zen and Pure Land buddhism, they were of course predominate along with Shinto. With the fanatical loyalty of a retainer coupled with the philosophical view of death in buddhism (there is no death), a samurai would not be scared to die, and thus, your point concerning carrying out an order instead of dying for not doing so is cannot be taken seriously given the historical and religious context of the times.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
Bushido was not just codex of bettlefiled and war stuff, it was codex of all bushis life. So there was rules for every situation. One example of that are rules what to do when samurai have to yawn on the street. Bushido is not just codex it was guide which learned samurai how to live.
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paa069
If a samurai would dihonor the bushido code in just a minor way...would he still be killed for his action? Was there any way of a "confession" that he could do? Was bushido extremely strict?
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EvilScott
I don't think the issue is Ninja's versus Samurais, its Ninjas versus Pirates!
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RoninMMA
Hell yeah that would be fuckin sweet!! Wow I can only imagine what ninja pirates would be like.
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setsu nin to
paa069

If a samurai would dihonor the bushido code in just a minor way...would he still be killed for his action? Was there any way of a "confession" that he could do? Was bushido extremely strict?

There is big diferent between "killed" and Seppuku. Samurai could died in honour or dishonour way. Seppuku was honour way. if he didnt whant to do Seppuku he would been killed. Acording to Bushido there are many diferent honour and dishonour ways how Samorai could died. Was there any way of a "confession" that he could do? Yes, there was, he could do Seppuku. Was bushido extremely strict? Yes, it was. If Samurai do something which was in one way good and in other not good, the had to take it as not good, becouse he couldnt allowed to himself that anyone suspect in his honour.
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setsu nin to
EvilScott

Ninjas versus Pirates???
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*Gong*Sao*
Everyone knows ninjas and pirates hate each other. Ninjas fly out to sea and bands of them attack pirate ships.
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setsu nin to
*Gong*Sao*

Ninjas fly
Realy thats interesting....


These is Ninjas vs Samurai thread, so I dont see what it have with pirates. But if anyone is interesting in Ninjas vs Pirates subject it would be nice to open new thread.
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*Gong*Sao*
Setsu: You seem a little misinformed about ninjas. Check out Real Ultimate Power .

P.S. Before you flame me, realize that I am joking
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setsu nin to
Thanks for site, now I realise real truth about Ninjas!
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RoninMMA
I have been to that site too, I went there from a link on Maddox's page. That site is great.
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*Gong*Sao*
Maddox is awesome. Best. Page. Ever.
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cross
I didn't read the first couple of pages, so forgive for this quesiton. But where Samurai's like lords of the land, or something like that?
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bamboo
Samurai were the military class of people in fuedal Japan that had the privelage to wear two swords. Some were very poor and some did infact own land and possessions. Different men had different standing. Some were lords, some were beggars.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
cross

But where Samurai's like lords of the land, or something like that?

Main point of Samurai was to serve the lord. So Samurais served to the lord. Samurais were worriors class in Japan.
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bamboo
Should probably add that the term samurai actually means to serve .

quote Main point of Samurai was to serve the lord. So Samurais served to the lord.[/quote 

Retainers also went against their word, as was the case for Hideyoshi when one of his generals (Tokagawa) decided to wage war on his own lord in order to become Shogun. This resulted in one the greatest battles in Japanese history- The battle of Sekigahara. I agree with you setsu, this is just an example of how the servant became a lord for more discussion.

-bamboo
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EvilScott
I think of the Samurai as kind of an equal of Knights to European chivarly. Honorable warriors who serve their lord, and are occasionally rewarded with a small fiefdom.
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setsu nin to
EvilScott

Yes, they have diferent rules and diferent costoms, but they played almoust same role. Inazo Nitobe made few exelent comparations between them, and exelent explained role of Samurais on example of Knights.
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Japanese Swords: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:17

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Japanese Swords

setsu nin to
I start these thread to writte something more about Japanese swords and diferent sorts of it. When we discouse about Japanese swords moust people know only for Katana and Wakizashi , not so many people know for Odachi and almoust noone know for many other sorts of Japanese swords. There are many diferent swords that were using in Japan by Samurais.

Main weapon of ancient Samurais, known as Mononofu was bow, now sword. Later it become sword, but they newer stop using bow. They started using more sword than bow becouse they finde it more effective while they ride a horse and on ground. Later sword known as Odachi become very popular to use while Samorai ride. Also Odachi was main weapon of battelfileds from Nanbokucho to Sengoku period.
Ofcourse every caind of sword had its purpouse. They were made in diferent ways for diferent purpouse.




First swords were diferent from what we know as Katana . They were structure suitable for stabbing and they had double plain cutting edge. They are known as Tsurugi .
Second tipe of sword were single cutting edge and they are known as Katana . It was long sword. Katana become main weapon of Samurais and main simbol of Samirai class.

Also there were more sorts of Japanese swords.

Odachi or Nodachi was very long curved sword. Odachi means "long sword" and Nodachi is transleted as "filed sword". Odachi or Nodachi was much longer than Katana for example.

Kutto was curved sword with cutting edge on inside. And no, it wasnt Katana . There is big diference between Kutto and Katana .

Katakiriba or Kataha have cutting edge just on one side of blade. Also it have plain cutting edge. Its diferent from Tsurugi .

Jindachi was curved sword made just for battlefiled.

Yoroi-doshi was short sword. It was made for stabing trough Yoroi (armour).

Here are two moust popular.
Daito (great sword) and Shoto or Katana and Wakizashi or Daito Katana and Shoto Wakizashi . These are long and short sword which were main simbol of Samurai.

Metezashi was short sword, same as Wakizashi but it was carryed on right side.
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bamboo
I would love to read more about the dai-katana setsu.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Only Samurais were allowed to wear Daito and Shoto at the same time. It was simbol of Samurai. Daito is long sword and Shoto is short sword, Katana and Wakizashi are tipes of Daito and Shoto that Samurais moust often have with them. Daito Katana and Shoto Wakizashi are just two diferent terms for Katana and Wakizashi. Its same to say Daito Katana and Shoto Wakizashi or long sword Katana and short sword Wakizashi.

There is one more interesting thing about wearing these swords. There are many storyes how Samurai never left their Katanas. Well truth is that they never left Wakizashi not Katana. They left Katane when they come in house or in house of some nobel or on some other place where they were not allowe to have Katana with them. So they had Wakizashi all the time, even while they slept.
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Gendai Budo or Bujutsu: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:13

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Gendai Budo or Bujutsu

Bushi
It is my understaning that Japanese MA after the Meiji restoration are referred to as Shin Budo or Gendai Budo (Modern Martial Way) and those before are referred to as Koryu Bujutsu ("Old Tradition" Martial Method/Art)

Concerning Jujutsu, the majority of Systems and styles taught today would fall in the catagory of Shin Budo/Gendai Budo but, the focus of most these styles is similar to the focus of Koryu Jujutsu systems as opposed to that of Aikido, Judo and the like (which I would concider Shin Budo/Gendai Budo).
What are your thoughts concerning the actual legitimacy of the current Jujutsu systems and can they hold a one to one comparison to the Koryu Jujutsu of old.

Ex: Small Circle Jujitsu-Wally Jay
Yoshitsune Waza- Michael Depasquale
Danzan ryu- Okazaki Seishiro
Hakko ryu- Okuyama Yoshiharu
Kobukai- Russ St. Hilaire

Just to name a few.

These arts draw there lineage back to multiple Koryu Jujutsu, but at the same time some cannot show a strong link. Any thoughts on the history of Modern Jujutsu would be appreciated.
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Hengest
That's an interesting question Bushi and one that, to be honest, I've never given much thought to. However, now you've got me thinking.

The first thing that springs to mind is that I personally, would not consider most jujutsu taught these days to be such. That's not to question the combat effectiveness of these styles, just their use of the term.

I would tend to disagree that they're closer to koryu bujutsu than gendai budo. Though there are exceptions (Hakko ryu for one), it seems to me that most jujutsu taught today, whether the clubs like it or not, is of the "sport jujutsu" kind, a sort of amalgamation of karate and judo that ends up looking like neither and even less like koryu jujutsu. Key to this, in my view, is the lack, sometimes total, of weapon skills, and effective ones at that, which of course were fundamental to most of the ryuha of old, and with good reason. Some of these gendai jujutsu schools teach techniques that don't really illustrate the life-and-death struggle of the koryu schools, where basic technique might include breaking kumiuchi long enough to reach for your dagger so that you can stab the other guy in the kidney. That of course though is a mark of the times rather than any fault of these modern dojo, but it does make for a key difference between gendai jujutsu and, what I would term, "real" jujutsu.

That said, while I don't think many of these schools should be using the term "jujutsu", I don't have the same contempt for them as I do the "gendai ninjutsu" schools, like Ronald Duncan, etc. Why this is, I'm not sure, perhaps because the jujutsu schools are far less likely to be trying to make money off any kind of fad. I would repeat that I don't question these schools' effectiveness. Wally Jay is an exceptional grappler as are many of his ilk. To be honest, I think the only thing I have against modern jujutsu is that they've coloured people's perception of what jujutsu is to the point that these karate/judo crossovers are considered the norm for a jujutsu dojo, which does a massive disservice to real jujutsu.
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setsu nin to
Exelent thread Bushi , congeatulation!

My opinion is that we can divide Japanese martial arts in two (well much more, but in these case two) groops. First group is Koryu and Gendai martial arts and second group is -jutsu and -do martial arts. So first I would like to say something about differences.

Koryu and Gendai
We may talk how some martial art have traditional techniques or modern techniques, how it have traditional roots and so many thing more and acording to that put it in traditional or modern group, but its so easy to prove is some martial arts Koryu or Gendai. All Japanese ryuhas which were found before 1868 are traditional and all ryuhas which were found after are modern. Ofcourse you have to prove that some ryuha is found before 1868 to be considerd traditional.

-jutsu and -do
Point of diference between -jutsu and -do arts is not time when some ryuha is found. Time doesnt mean much.
For example there is no traditional Aikido school, becouse they all are found after 1868, but in year 2200 (youst example) all schools that were found in Meiji period will become traditional too so we wont use 1868 year (end of Edo period) any more to decide which ryuha is traditional and which is modern. We will use year 1912 and than some Aikido schools will become traditional.
Thats why we cant use -jutsu and -do devide to decide which ryuha is traditional and which is modern.
Diferent between -jutsu and -do is in aproach to the art. I wrote many times before about that. Peacful way -do start developing in "time of peace" in Japan. -Jutsu ryuhas lost some of important becouse there was no wars as before, so in that time were developed -do arts (Kyudo, Kendo, Iaido, Judo...). Ofcourse -do arts were not developed in same time, so we cant put strict one year and said that they were developed in same year, but we can say that they developed in Meiji period. -Do ares are more peaceful than -jutsu arts, they are more based on developing of peace...

And in the and "Is there legitimacy for Gendai Jujutsu?"
Yes, there is legitimacy for Gendai Jujutsu. If ryuha use aproach of Jujutsu it can be called Gendai Jujutsu.
Is there Koryu -do arts? No, there is no Koryu arts jet, maybe some -do arts become Koryu in future.

Does some Gendai Jujutsu school have aproach of -jutsu is some other discousion in my opinion. In my opinion its realy big problem today. You may finde modern Jujutsu schools which werent developed from Jujutsu, they are Jujutsu just becouse its popular and they are money factory, nothing more.
Today everyone can open Jujutsu Dojo, but will it be Jujutsu, thats qoestion.

I will use just one example how far it can go.
Colonel Santiago Sanchis is founder of Ju Jutsu Do??? Acording to some world known magazines and his profile he is one of the best experts in police and military combat in West. Now my question is, how can some expert create something as Ju Jutsu Do? Its 100% contradictory. Same art cant be -jutsu and -do in the same time. It can be -jutsu or -do.
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Bushi
So if I read you right, There are three BASIC Categories: Koryu Bujutsu, Gendai Budo and Gendai Bujutsu. I can agree with this. I find it disheartening that after the Meiji many Jujutsu ryuha fell off. I mean it is mind blowing that over 700 ryuha could disintegrate to around 20 Koryu of today. It is quite sad for such an impressive jutsu.
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setsu nin to
Bushi

Yes, we could say it that way, but I wouldnt terms Budo and Bujutsu put so strictly with -do and -jutsu arts. Its truth that these terms today often used with -do and -jutsu arts.
In my opinion these Budo and Bujutsu are two diferent aspect of same thing. Budo is more mental/spiritual aspect while Bujutsu is more physical/trchniqual aspect.
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Documented assassinations by Ninja?: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:11

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Documented assassinations by Ninja?

Bushi
Is there a documented account of a ninja pulling off an assassination, or was that just to scare noble children (and politicians that surfed the fringe )?
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bamboo
I have seen documented information concerning the use of ninja in specific battles but will make some inquiries concerning actual assassinations concerning "who", "what" and when".

-bamboo
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Arjun
Doubtful. If anything there might be documentation of certain people saying undetailed things about the death of so and so or something similar. Ninja means secrecy. Not literally, but no matter what the ninja was, who they were, we do know that they operated in secret. It would be foolish and pointless for them to document such things, and even more so for the person hiring or employing the ninja - since using such services would be considered the opposite of honorable.
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bamboo
Bushi

I had the chance to do some reseach (slow day at the archives) and found accounts of ninja used during the first invasion of Korea. The regular troops lost but the ninja are recorded as doing well in terms of breaking into enemy camps and destroying food stuffs and such.

The second example I found was during the seige of Osaka Castle (1614) , although not an assination per say, One of Toyotomo Hideyori generals committed suicide after learning that ninja had infiltrated the castle of his lord. After the battle ended, Toyotamo himself took his life.

As Arjun said, it seems very diificult to find any proof of actual assassinations of noblemen at the hands of ninja.

(Although I did find examples of so called assassinations, none of them could be properly sourced so I saw no need to list possible fairy tales )


-bamboo
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BLACK PANTA
Wouldn't the Shogun or whoever have notes or records of who died, who killed him and how he died?
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bamboo
Panta,

The Japanese of this era kept extensive records but also had to save face. Dying at the hands of a ninja would looked pretty crappy!

-bamboo
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BLACK PANTA
Now leaves the question if there we no records then how do we know that Ninjas were actually assasins. Was it just through stories handed down. I believe that there must have been records. Oh wait the stories may have been handed down through the art itself.
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bamboo
Panta,

I'm sure if it happened there must be records, its just that there are hundreds of thousands of said records and the vast majority of them have never been translated into english. Its a slow process and it only ever happens when a westerner does some sort of project. One guy to contact would be Peter Goldsbury at Tokyo University ( i think its tokyo ). He is a prof. of Asian culture and would much more access to authentic records and also speaks Japanese.

Its an intersesting but very frustrating subject.

-bamboo
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BLACK PANTA
I got a friend teaching english at some school in Japan I will get in touch with him and ask him if he can get in touch with that dude. cool man thanks.
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HongKongDragon
http://www.aikido-international.org/officers.htm

Dr Peter Goldsbury
3-29 Ushita Honmachi
4-chome
Higashi-ku
Hiroshima 732-0066
Japan Tel. + 81-82-211-1271
Fax. + 81-82-211-1955
[email  This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it [/email 
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DeStRuCtIkOn
Editted.

from ninpo.org: Born in 1542 to a retainer of Tokugawa Ieyasu. After his father's death, Hanzo replaced his father in the service of Ieyasu, leading Iga warriors. His nickname was Oni (devil) Hanzo. After his death in the fourth day of the eleven month of 1596, he was given the posthumous name Sainen.

At the age of 16, Hanzo successfully led a band of Iga warriors, which earned him his first recognition as a commander. In the first month of 1569 he attacked Kakegawa castle, and in the sixth month of 1570 Hanzo led his warriors in the battle of Anegawa in which Oda Nobunaga annihilated the forces of Asai Nagamasa and Asakura Yoshikage. His defining moment came in 1582 when Tokugawa Ieyasu was accused of not rushing to avenge the assassination of Oda Nobunaga at Honnoji. At that time, Ieyasu needed help to escape to his home base in Mikawa province, and it was Hanzo with the help of his Iga warriors who provided Ieyasu with protection and safe passage through the mountains of Iga. For his role in protecting Ieyasu he received 8,000 koku of land. Then, after Tokugawa Ieyasu entered the Kanto region, he officially appointed Hanzo to command thirty horsemen and 200 special Iga warriors. Hanzo's warriors were charged with guarding the gate to Edo castle, Ieyasu's headquarters. The gate is known today as Hanzomon, or "Hanzo Gate."

from samurai-archives.com:
Also known as Masashige. The son of a certain Hattori Yasunaga, Hanzo, who would earn the nickname 'Devil Hanzo', served Tokugawa Ieyasu loyally and usefully. His nickname - Devil Hanzo - was not only to pay homage to his skills but also to distinguish him from another Tokugawa 'ninja', Watanabe Hanzo. Hattori, who fought his first battle at the age of 16, went on to serve at Anegawa (1570) and Mikatagahara (1572), but his most valuable contribution came in 1582, following Oda Nobunaga's death. At that time Tokugawa and his retainers had been staying near Ôsaka and learned of the assassination only just in time to avoid being detained by Akechi Mitsuhide's troops. But they were by no means out of the woods. Mikawa was still a long way away, and Akechi men would be combing the roads for them. At this point, Hanzo suggested that they take a route through Iga province, as he had ties with the samurai there. In addition, Ieyasu had sheltered survivors from Nobunaga's bloody invasion of that province in 1580 and those who knew of this would certainly be well disposed to offer assistance. Honda Tadakatsu sent Hanzo on ahead, and, as hoped, the Iga men agreed not only to guide them along back roads, but also to provide them with an escort. At length, Tokugawa and his band returned to Mikawa safely. The same could not be said for Anayama Beisetsu, a recent Tokugawa addition who had insisted on taking a different route.

Hanzo was succeded by his son, Masanari, who would be given the title Iwami-no-Kami and whose men would act as the guards of Edo Castle. Hanzo's reputation as a ninja leader who commanded a 200-man strong unit of Iga men has grown to legendary proportions.

So, as we can see here, the "ninja" were the special forces units designed to protect the commanders and leaders. Not just 'retainers' that fought for the protection of a daimyo's fief, but akin to the Secret Service bodyguarding the president.
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jlambvo
It would be kind of silly if such records existed IMO, especially in that culture. Would it be any easier to find records of assassinations organized by the CIA, KGB, or other organizations in the world from ANY point in time?

You *do* read about instances of samurai retainers being ordered to kill an individual for whatever reason, and there was (what could be referred to as) "ninjutsu" in many bujutsu traditions. So you could possibly consider some instances to be samurai employing "ninjutsu" to accomplish a goal, be it the strategy or physical methods labelled as such. Just a thought.

Heheh, speculating this is all fun and games. I'd be interested if any info comes up on it though.
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paa069
Bushi, you said this:
Is there a documented account of a ninja pulling off an assassination, or was that just to scare noble children (and politicians that surfed the fringe )?

Did you mean a documentation like a story almost? like the actual techniques and stuff that the ninja used to assasinate someone or what? Not quite clear as to what you mean. I know that most of the Masaaki Hatsumi books have some stories as well as Stephen Hayes.
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Bushi
I can only use examples from modern history.

Pres. Lincoln killed by John Wilkes Booth
Pres. Kennedy Killed by Lee Harvey Oswald (save the conspiracy theories)
RFK killed by Sirhan Sirhan
etc.

Can an account be pointed to and say a Ninja killed so and so.
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setsu nin to
There are many proov about Ninjas. In the begining they were more soldiers and in the end they were more spys. There are few threads about ninjas so you may look there for it.
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Brief history of Yakuza: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:08

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Brief history of Yakuza

BLACK PANTA
Yakuza were actually Ronin Samurai and it was "founded" in the 1600's. They were a band of Ronin that came together to work for the betterment of the Japanese poor folk. Like the English band of merry men from Sherwood forest. This once honouralbe motive wich then was a crime has now evolved into an organized crime syndicate. I just wanted you all to know (those who didn't) the origin of this organized crime family and their honourable history.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
Any sources? The Yakuza these days are more like the Mafia here in America, so I'm not inclined to see them as thieves who take from the rich and give to the poor.
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by DeStRuCtIkOn
Any sources? The Yakuza these days are more like the Mafia here in America, so I'm not inclined to see them as thieves who take from the rich and give to the poor.



NO no that was their history. That was when Yakuza was young and first came about. Like everything else corruption sets in and ruins
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BLACK PANTA
History of the Yakuza --- Feudal Japan
Kabuki-Mono

The yakuza can trace its origins back to as early as 1612, when people known as kabuki-mono ("crazy ones"), began to attract the attention of local officials. Their odd clothing and haircuts and behavior, along with carrying longswords at their sides, made them quite noticable. Kabuki-mono made a habit of antagonizing and terrorizing anyone at their leisure, even to the point of cutting one down just for sheer pleasure.

The kabuki-mono were eccentric samurai, taking outrageous names for their bands and speaking heavily in slang. Their loyalty to one another was remarkable. They would protect each other from any threat, including against their own families.

In fact, the kabuki-mono were servants of the shogun, also taking the name of hatamoto-yakko ("Servants of the shogun"). The groups were comprised of nearly 500,000 samurai that were forced into unemployment during the time of peace during the Tokugawa era, forcing them to become ronin ("Wave man," a masterless samurai). Many had turned into bandits, looting towns and villages as they wandered throughout Japan.

The hatamoto-yakko cannot truly be seen as the forebears of that yakuza. Instead, the yakuza see the machi-yokko ("Servants of the town") as their ancestors. These people were the ones who took up arms and defended the villages and towns from the hatamoto-yokko. These people consisted of such occupations as clerks, shopkeepers, innkeepers, laborers, homeless warriors and other ronin. Everyone who was part of the machi-yakko was an adept gambler, which helped them develop a closely-knit relationship with each other and their leaders, much like today's yakuza.

The machi-yakko soon became folk heroes, praised by the townspeople for their actions against the hatamoto-yakko, though they were, for the most part, untrained and weaker than the hatamoto-yakko. They were very similar to England's Robin Hood. Some of the machi-yakko were even subjects of stories and plays. (Kaplan, p14-16)

The early yakuza did not surface until the middle to late 1700's. These members include the bakuto (traditional gamblers) and the tekiya (street peddlers). These terms are still used today to describe yakuza members today, although a third group, gurentai (hoodlums) has been added in the post World War II era. Everyone in those groups came from the same background: poor, landless, delinquents and misfits. The groups stuck closely in the same small areas without problems, as the bakuto remained mostly along the higways and towns, and the tekiya operated in the markets and fairs of Japan.

The yakuza began organizing into families, adopting a relationship known as oyabun-kobun (father-role/chiled-role). The oyabun was the "father," providing advice, protection and help; the kobun acted as the "child," swearing unswerving loyalty and service whenever the oyabun needed it.

The initiation ceremony for the yakuza also developed in this period of time. Instead of the actual bloodletting that was practiced by the Mafia and the Triads, the yakuza exchanged sake cups to symbolize the entrance into the yakuza and the oyabun-kobun relationship. The amounts of sake poured into each cup depended upon one's status, whether the participants were father-son, brother-brother, elder-younger, etc. The ceremony was usually performed in front if a Shinto altar, giving it religious significance. (Kaplan, p18-20)
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Hengest
Not to question your research Panta, but it's difficult for me to link these warriors of old with the yakuza I see walking round Tokyo. Most of them are jokers. It's very difficult to be scared of a man who thinks punch perms and massive shades are still cool...
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by Hengest
Not to question your research Panta, but it's difficult for me to link these warriors of old with the yakuza I see walking round Tokyo. Most of them are jokers. It's very difficult to be scared of a man who thinks punch perms and massive shades are still cool...



lol,

but you obviously wouldn't say that to them face to face. But regardless their history was once an honourable one. Just thought others and you included would be interested to know.
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Hengest

quote:

but you obviously wouldn't say that to them face to face.



Very true! They could probably kick my arse easily. I'd just be pissing myself laughing at their "fashion" sense while they did it.
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by Hengest

quote:

but you obviously wouldn't say that to them face to face.



Very true! They could probably kick my arse easily. I'd just be pissing myself laughing at their "fashion" sense while they did it.



I know what you mean though. The top gun shades kill me 2.
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setsu nin to
Hengest

If you will have any problems with Yakuzas just call me.

I will come (never) and tell them: Hengest is my friend (I never saw him before). He didnt do nothing wrong, live him alone, NOW! (Hengest is guilty for everything). If you whant problems come to me (I agree with you Mr. Yakuza, whatever you say
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article on Seppuku: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:05

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: article on Seppuku

BLACK PANTA
Seppuku - Ritual Suicide
Seppuku, (Sape-puu-kuu) the Japanese formal language term for ritual suicide (Hara-kiri (Har-rah-kee-ree) is the common language term.), was an intregal aspect of feudal Japan (1192-1868). It developed as an intregal part of the code of bushido and the discipline of the samurai warrior class.
Hara-kiri, which literally means "stomach cutting" is a particularly painful method of self-destruction, and prior to the emergence of the samurai as a professional warrior class, was totally foreign to the Japanese.
The early history of Japan reveals quite clearly that the Japanese were far more interested in living the good life than in dying a painful death. It was not until well after the introduction of Buddhism, with its theme of the transitory nature of life and the glory of death, that such a development became possible.
To the samurai, seppuku--whether ordered as punishment or chosen in preference to a dishonorable death at the hands of an enemy--was unquestionable demonstration of their honor, courage, loyalty, and moral character.
When samurai were on the battlefield, they often carried out acts of hara-kiri rapidly and with very little formal preparation. But on the other occasions, particularly when it was ordered by a feudal lord, or the shogun (as was directed of Lord Asano in the Tale of the 47 Ronin. ) , seppuku or hara-kiri was a very formal ceremony, requiring certain etiquette, witnesses and considerable preparation.
Not all Japanese samurai or lords believed in, even though many of them followed the custom. The great Ieyasu Tokugawa, who founded Japan's last great Shogunate dynasty in 1603, eventually issued an edict forbidding hara-kiri to both secondary and primary retainers.
The custom was so deeply entrenched, however, that it continued, and in 1663, at the urging of Lord Nobutsuna Matsudaira of Izu, the shogunate government issued another, stronger edict, prohibiting ritual suicide. This was followed up by very stern punishment for any lord who allowed any of his followers to commit harakiri or seppuku. Still the practice continued throughout the long Tokugawa reign, but it declined considerably as time went by.
Honor for the samurai was dearer than life and in many cases, self destruction was regarded not simply as right, but as the only right course. Disgrace and defeat were atoned by committing hara-kiri or seppuku. Upon the death of a daimyo loyal followers might show their grief and affection for their master by it. Other reasons a samurai committed seppuku were: to show contempt for an enemy; to protest against injustice, as a means to get their lord to reconsider an unwise or unworthy action and as a means to save others.
The ritual for disenbowlment was to be performed calmly and without flinching. If condemned to death, it was held to be a privilege to execute the sentence on one's own body rather than to be a disgrace and die at the hands of the public headsman.

The location of an officially ordered seppuku ceremony was very important. Often the ritual was performed at temple
(but not Shinto shrines), in the garden or villas, and inside homes. The size of the area available was also important, as it was prescribed precisely for samurai of high rank.
All the matters relating to the act was carefully prescribed and carried out in the most meticulous manner. The most conspicuous participant, other than the victim, was the kaishaku (kie-shah-kuu), or assistant, who was responsible for cutting off the victim's head after he had sliced his abdomen open. The was generally a close friend or associate of the condemned.
Although suicide is deplored in Japan today, it does not have the sinful overtones that are common in the west. People still kill themselves for failed businesses, involvement in love triangles, or even failing school examinations, death is still consider by many as better than dishonor.
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RoninMMA
I read somewhere that some samurai were unable to undergo the pain of seppuku. So sometimes the ritual took place with another person standing behind. They were to cut off that persons head if they were unable to ignore the pain of hara-kiri. I know what you mean about suicide not having the sinful views that the west has. When I was a kid living on Oahu in Hawaii, there was this Japanese couple that lived two doors down. I guess the husband was having an affair. So the wife decided to drench herself in gasoline and light herself on fire, inside the house. I remember coming home from school and seeing news cameras, police, firetrucks, and everything else. I know it's kinda bad to say this, but at the time I was just a kid. I sat out on my porch and thought everything was pretty cool. I never got to see a big ass house(they were a really rich family) burn down before.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by RoninMMA
I read somewhere that some samurai were unable to undergo the pain of seppuku. So sometimes the ritual took place with another person standing behind. They were to cut off that persons head if they were unable to ignore the pain of hara-kiri.



The idea here was that if the person committing suicide showed pain or whatever else might happen when slicing out your entrails, a friend would sever the neck so that onlookers would not be offended and the person would retain honor. Furthermore, the cut was not meant to go entirely through the neck, just far enough to kill instantly. It would be just as offensive or dishonorable to have somebody's head rolling about.
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RoninMMA
Oh ok that makes more sense then cutting off someones head. I was always under the impression that they cut the head off. Thanks.
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

Just to add...

Hara-kiri is more used term for Seppuku by American and European people and its not so popular in Japan. In Japan Hara-kiri is unpolite name for Seppuku.
Thats why there is not Hara-kiri-to, while there is Seppuku-to.

Hara-kiri come from hara we could translate as abdomen (hara is few inchs under navel) and kiri which mean to cut .
Seppuku is much older term and it come from setsu which mean to cut (from Middle Chinese tshet) and fuku which mean abdomain (from Middle Chinese fuwk).

Inazio Nitobe gave us exelent example of "Seppuku" in European cultur... Also he gave us examples of Seppuku and how all ritual was done.
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setsu nin to
RoninMMA

Kaishaku cut Samurais head off. he would do that becouse of two reasons. First to make end of Samurais suffer (belive me it was painful) and second to help Samurai to not show any pain. If Samurai showed the pain than it was not Seppuku any more. There are strict rules about Seppuku and they are not allowed to show pain. If they showed pain of fall back or... that they would lost honour.
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FHATODude
quote:

Originally posted by DeStRuCtIkOn
The idea here was that if the person committing suicide showed pain or whatever else might happen when slicing out your entrails, a friend would sever the neck so that onlookers would not be offended and the person would retain honor. Furthermore, the cut was not meant to go entirely through the neck, just far enough to kill instantly. It would be just as offensive or dishonorable to have somebody's head rolling about.



One of my frinds in Kendo noticed that "head rolling" error while watching The Last Samurai haha.
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setsu nin to
FHATODude

It depende. If Samurai had to made Seppuku to keep honour then they wouldnt cut his head off (they left few cm of his neck), but if he had to do Seppuku to take back his honour then they would cut his head off.
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bamboo

quote:

Furthermore, the cut was not meant to go entirely through the neck, just far enough to kill instantly. It would be just as offensive or dishonorable to have somebody's head rolling about.



Good point Des,
The "second" or assistant would cut just enough to allow a flap of skin to gently guide the head into a basket in front of the recently deceased.


Another little point about the terms Hara Kiri and Seppuku. The kanji used to write Hara-kiri are exactly the same as the ones used to write seppuku, they are simply inversed to be read as less vulgar seppuku then the more graphic and offensive hara-kiri.

Great threads Panta!

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

If Samurai had to make Seppuku to keep honour his head wouldnt be cutted off.
For example if he was captured in war, he had abbility to died honourible, so he could make Seppuku, or if his maser died. So he didnt lost honour, he just get chance to die in honour way. Than his head wouldnt be cutted of. Kaishaku cutted his neck, but he didnt cuted his head of.

If Samurai had to do Seppuku to take back his honour than his head was cutted off.
For example if Samurai faild in mission or if he do something wrong and his master decide that he had to made Seppuku his head was cutted off. If Kaishaku cut his head so that head was roling on the ground he would probably become second on Seppuku list or if he wasnt Samurai he would be killed.
As I said in Bushido you have rules for almoust everything so you have rules how Kaishaku have to cut head too.
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bamboo

quote:

As I said in Bushido you have rules for almoust everything so you have rules how Kaishaku have to cut head too.



Good point Setsu, rules for everything! From what I understand, the position of Kaishakunin would have only been performed at official ceremonies by the most able of swordsmen. Those serving nobility or shogun would have trained everyday as to how to properly cut the neck but not quite sever the head. Kaishukunin was a position within the government and a coveted one at that. I'm not saying that all that served as second would have an official positition as kaishaku, but it was an honoured duty and not taken lightly.

The position of Kaishaku was so illustrious that even modern day manga or Japanese art comics and movies have been made of fictitional Kaishakunin. One example is the very famous "Okami Kazure" or "Lone Wolf and Cub"'. That manga series alone was made into a series of 6 Japanese films, a t.v. series and a horrendous amercain film called "shogun's executioner". (This film was edited from the original 6 japanese films and changed every part of the story line and the characters).

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

When Samurai had to make Seppuku he would choose Kaishaku. Moust often it would be best friend or someone from family. Ofcourse Kaishaku had to know how to use sword. If Kaishaku do something wrong preforming rytual of Seppuku than he lost honour not Samurai and if Kaishaku. It wasnt hard for Kaishaku to cut Samurais neck in right way. Cutting with sword was practiced every day. Samurais practiced to cut (and tested swords) on dead bodyes of anymals and humans, sometimes on convicts who were sentence to death...
They made all art from cutting (and form what they didnt make art?). They even had name for every variation of cuttung.
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BLACK PANTA
Just a side note Tsuifuku (suicide of a retainer when his master dies), another form of Seppuku i believe was outlawed in and around 1700. I remember reading this from Hagakure.
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bamboo
Panta

This form of seppuku is also called junshi, if you take a quick scan of the original samurai/ninja thread you can get alot more in depth information such as exact dates and people implementing and breaking the law.



-bamboo
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

You read about Oibaru. Oibaru is form of Seppuku which Samurais made after death of their Master. With Oibaru rytual Samurais followed thier Master in death.
Oibaru was Seppuku so its correct to use term Seppuku insead of Oibaru. if you say that Samurai made Seppuku after death of master its same correct as you said that he commited Oibaru.
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Junshi was diferent from Seppuku. Same as Oibaru, Junshi was made after death of master. Junshi means dying with the master and its wariation of self immolation. Junishi as self immolation lived very short, just for some 50 or 60 years.
Also Junishi as term was used for ritual self hurting which was made after death of master.
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bamboo
Setsu :

If junshi is following your master in death, and oiburu is following your master in death, are they not the same thing? I understand the act of self mutilation is not seppuku but that was not what I was referring to.

I am not clear how one is different from the other if both acts of suicide where committed out of loyalty to ones retainer. Now I do understand that one could follow ones master in death using a form other than traditional centre cutting, (such as drowning, impaling oneself on a spear...etc) that of course would not be seppuku, but if was the act of seppuku, why are they not the same?

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Oibaru is Seppuku. Seppuku is more general term. Seppuku which Samurai had made after death of his Master is Oibaru.

Junshi was difrernt rytual with same result - death of Samurai. Same sa Oibaru junshi was made after death of master.
There are diferents in rytual and time. For example Samurai had to made Junshi on day of Masters death and Oibaru he could do later (if he had to revenged death of Master or something like that).
Also Junshi was used for just 50/60 years and later it become rytual self hurting.
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bamboo
Setsu

Thanks very much for this information, its nice to clear things up in a civil manner without petty arguments or flaming.

take care,

bamboo
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bamboo
Setsu

I did a little more research into the nature of junshi and found some very interesting examples. One being a noble woman drowning herself in what is now known as the "bell pond" in Japan. Apparantly she was crushed and drowned under the weight of a giant bell. Other examples would like the general and his wife that killed themselves upon the death of the emperor, or samurai driving swords through thier heads.

Again thanks for the clarifacation.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

I heard fo that example whit woman who take here life. I also have one big discousion with some people about it (not here on the forum). We discoused was that Junshi or not, becouse she was women. Seppuku, Oibaru and Junshi were rituals which were done by Samurais or Ronins and she wasnt Samurai or Ronin.

Whel there are many examples of Seppuku which was done by people who were not Samurais/Ronins.

Also terms Seppuku, Oibaru and Junshi were and still are used in diferent way by diferent people. So if you look back in history you may finde example when term Junshi was used for Seppuku which wasnt comited becouse of dearh of Master.

Also its interesting how ritual od Seppuku was had many rules, but main point was to take your life. When someone who was doing Seppuku didnt have time for all ritual he had just to take his life.
There is exelent example of general Tojo who comited Seppuku widouth 99% of ritual. He didnt had Kaishaku he didnt even had Seppuku-to!!! When Americans come to his house to capture him he take gun and shoot himself in stomac.
In one way ritual of Seppuku have strict rules, but if you are not able to go by rules you may improvise.
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bamboo
Setsu:

No ritual but he did cut his centre, although it was with a bullet!

As an aside, have you ever read the book The Code of the Samurai by Daidoji Yuzan and translated into english by A.L. Sadler (also called Budo Shoshinshu in Japanese, or Beginners Bushido when first published)?

If not I would recomend it as it adds a slightly modern perspective (well, up to 1944 if you consider that modern) and really interesting read.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

I know for Yuzan Daidojis book "The Code of the Samurai" I read it long time ago. Good book.


No ritual but he did cut his centre, although it was with a bullet!

No ritual, no Kaishaku, not even Seppuku-to.
American soldiers were in his yard so he didnt have time for any ritual, or to finde Kaishaku or to use Seppuku-to. He have time just to take his gun and shoot himself. American soldiers finde him in blood and take him to hospital, they needed him alive becouse of trial. General Tojo survived and that was big shame for him. To save his honour he decide to live and save emperor on trial. When trial come general Tojo said that he is guilti for everything they tryed to accuse emperor. General Tojo was send to death and he saved emperor.
Also general Tojo is very interesting becouse he published something like Bushido cedex for Japanese soldiers in WWII.
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article on Bushido: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:03

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: article on Bushido

BLACK PANTA
This term refers to the moral code principals that developed among the samurai (military) class of Japan, on a basis of national tradition influenced by Zen and Confucianism. The first use of the term apparently occured during the civil war period of the 16th century; its precise content varied historically as samurai standards evolved. Its one unchanging ideal was martial spirit, including athletic and military skills as well as fearless facing of the enemy in battle. Frugal living, kindness and honesty were also highly regarded. Like Confucianism, Bushido required filial piety; but, originating in the feudal system, it also held that supreme honour was to serve one's lord unto death. If these obligations conflicted, the samurai was bound by loyalty to his lord despite the suffering he might cause to his parents.
The final rationalization of Bushido thought occured during the Tokugawa period (17th century ff.), when Yamaga Soko (1622-85) equated the samurai with the Confucian "superior man" and taught that his essential function was to exemplify virtue to the lower classes. Without disregarding the basic Confucian virtue, benevolence, Soko enphasized the second virtue, righteousness, which he interpreted as "obligation" or "duty". This strict code of honour, affecting matters of life and death, demanded conscious choice and so fostered individual initiative while yet reasserting the obligations of loyalty and filial piety. Obedience to authority was stressed, but duty came first even if it entailed violation of statue law. In such an instance, the true samurai would prove his sincerity and expiate his crime against the government by subsequently taking his own life.

By mid-19th century, Bushido standards had become the general ideal, and the legal abolition of the samurai class in 1871 made Bushido even more the property of the entire nation. In the public educational system, with the emperor replacing the feudal lord as the object of loyalty and sacrifice, Bushido bacame the foundation of ethical training. As such, it contributed both to the rise of Japanese nationalism and to the strengthening of wartime civilian morale up to 1945
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RoninMMA
What happened during the period between Meiji and WW2? Was bushido still taught among a new modernized army? Is it still relevant in the Japanese army of today, even with what happened during WW2? Just wondering.
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setsu nin to
RoninMMA

Last variation of Bushido was military codex writted by grneral Todo in WWII. I dont know if there was written anything after that. Codex was preparing soldier for death, teach him how to die in honour way...

In Meiji perion bushido was still very popular. Many Ronins still followed idea of Bushido. Bushido wasnt just battlefiled codex, it had rules about every situation in Samurais/Ronins life. That Bushido wasnt "died" till these thays we may see on many examples on Japan.
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setsu nin to
sorry I wrong spell name of general Tojo in previous post.



BLACK PANTA

Roots of Bushido are much older than Bushido in 16th century. Rules existed before, they existed before Bushido as codex but they were in just gather in Bushido.

When we discouse about Bushido wha have to mention Hagakure. Hagakure ("hidden leaves" or "hidden by leaves") was written by Yamamoto Tsunetomo in 1716. Book is real good, and you may teach many things about Samurais and Japan of that time.

When we talk about Samurais we often talk about Zen and Confucianism. Its important to say that master was much more important to than than religion. So religion wasnt on first place to Samurais.
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BLACK PANTA
quote:

Originally posted by setsu nin to
sorry I wrong spell name of general Tojo in previous post.



BLACK PANTA

Roots of Bushido are much older than Bushido in 16th century. Rules existed before, they existed before Bushido as codex but they were in just gather in Bushido.

When we discouse about Bushido wha have to mention Hagakure. Hagakure ("hidden leaves" or "hidden by leaves") was written by Yamamoto Tsunetomo in 1716. Book is real good, and you may teach many things about Samurais and Japan of that time.

When we talk about Samurais we often talk about Zen and Confucianism. Its important to say that master was much more important to than than religion. So religion wasnt on first place to Samurais.



Setsu I am currently re-reading Hagakure so that I may be able to take in some of what I have missed. I am also reading Go rin no sho. Just though I would mention for it is a great read.
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setsu nin to
BLACK PANTA

Setsu I am currently re-reading Hagakure so that I may be able to take in some of what I have missed. I am also reading Go rin no sho. Just though I would mention for it is a great read.


Exelent books! I am realy happy becouse of it. I would like to recomande one more book if you didnt read it. Book is called Bushido and its written by Inazo Nitobe.

Just to say that I like your threads about Bushido and Seppuku. Exelent threads, congratulation!
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bamboo
Black Panta:

Go Rin No Sho is to me one of the best books to ever come out of that period. I mentioned long ago in one of first posts a book called "The Unfettered Mind" by the monk Takuan Soho. I think if you look at this one as well you will find some obvious links between the two as Takuan Soho was an early teacher of Musashi.

Ronin MMA: Another example of modern Bushido would have been the Kamikaze pilots of WW2 that gave their lives for the emperor. ANother example would be the "Red Brigade", an extremist group that in 1972 tortured to death 11 comrades for disloyalty. Strangely, this group captured the hearts of the Japanese public until the police stormed their stronghold and the remaining 5 cowered and put up no fight. Instead of being commended for going peacefully, the Japanese press lambasted them for not having the heart of a warrior and giving up.

-bamboo
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RoninMMA
Where is a good place to get some of these books that have been mentioned? Can I get them from Amazon.com, or are they hard to find? I am really interested in reading up on Bushido.
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setsu nin to
RoninMMA

There is not problem to buy that books, you may buy them where ever you whant. I think that Go Rini No Sho you may buy on these site, but I am not shure.
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BLACK PANTA
Chapters Indigo has great pricing and shipping costs are low. I got a hard binding book of Go Rin no sho for like 30 dollars CDN funds. Gotta be cheaper in the States. My Sifu actually gave me his book wich was given to him by our Master(M.H.R.I.P). I bought the hard binding copy for my Sifu as a gift for Eid UL Fitr.
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setsu nin to
Go Rini No Sho Book is realy exelent and its doesnt comst much. Everyone should read that book, its value is not just in sword are it in everyday life.
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bamboo
It might be helpful to give the english title for Gorin no sho- Book of Five Rings .

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
Unfortunatly Miyamoto Musashi make one big mistake when he wrotte Book of Five Rings. Hi didnt know that there is One Ring to rule them all
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Bushi
Another good book is Code of the Samurai , Amodern translation of the Bushido Shoshinsu by Thomas Cleary


This book shows the rules for life outside of Battle. It guides in Choosing friends, House Building, Big talk and criticism, How to travel etc.
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RoninMMA
Ahh yes I know of the Book of Five Rings. I read part of it, from someone who had it translated and copied it onto the internet. However its original title threw me off since I never saw it that way. But I still have the cd which it was copied onto. Yes I saw the Code of the Samurai, I am looking into buying it. Another book I saw was Bushido: The Soul of Japan by Inazo Nitobe. Does anyone know about this book?
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Bushi
quote:

Originally posted by setsu nin to


Exelent books! I am realy happy becouse of it. I would like to recomande one more book if you didnt read it. Book is called Bushido and its written by Inazo Nitobe.

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bamboo
I have read some severe academic critisisms of mr. Nitobe book in that some believe that he made up a large portion of what he wrote and actually grew up in seclusion from most of Japan. He should be noted that he believed that he coined the term bushido and was suprised to learn of its use and existence prior to his own writing.

That being said, its also regarded by many as a good source and was a the representative of Japan in Canada and a noted professor at Tokyo University. I own and read it but as with all material, read it with a discerning eye.

-bamboo

(edited one time for clarity)
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setsu nin to
RoninMMA

When Japan opened its doors to the world and when Japanese culture become shown to the world many people from West were shocked with Bushido. They finde it unmoral, violent, barbarian...
In his book, Inazo Nitobe, tryed to explain that there is nothing unusual in Bushido. He tryed to explain to on many examples from Western couture, history, literature, religion...
These book will give you some new view on Bushido. Many people who read these book understand some thing about Bushido which they couldnt understood before.
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BLACK PANTA
Secular peoples see's every aspect of honour as Barbaric, outdated and useless. Bushido is to elaborate for their minds to comprehend.
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setsu nin to
Also its not just comparation about Japanese and Western culture, its more proof that we are not better than them. Also book have many historical examples, its explain much about Samurais, living in Japan, rules...
Is not just we do that and you did same, or Bushido - rule number one... ...example of it in Europe.
Book is exelent written so you may read it in few hours.
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bamboo
bushi mentioned:

quote:

Code of the Samurai , Amodern translation of the Bushido Shoshinsu



I believe I found a translation of the original by Daidoji Yuzan (if its the same book) The Code of the Samurai by Sadler. I think I mentioned it in another post but did not realize it was a translation of an actual manual given out to young samurai in the 16th century.

-bamboo
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Modern(Gendai) Jujitsu v. Traditional(Koryu)Jujutsu:Old...
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 14:56

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Modern (Gendai ryu) Jujitsu v. Traditional (Koryu) Jujutsu: Old Forum Topic

Bushi
For those familiar with the difference, I ask for a comparison more than a versus type thread. I was wondering where you stand as to the similarities of these two. Now i concede that some Gendai ryu try to be identical to Koryu, even in their training style but, most do not. I am of the opinion that JUDO is the deciding factor. I feel that most founders of these Gendai Ryu have taken techniques from Koryu Jujutsu, Karate and the like and used the philosphy, techniques and training model of Kano and made their current Jujutsu systems.

There are very few Koryu Jujutsu ryuhas and have traditionally taught techniques as two man kata and did not have a belt system but teacher and student rankings.

I feel the Gendai ryu have been formed to fill the void of Koryu jujutsu schools and instruction. Being that there are very little official instructors and schools around.
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setsu nin to
Bushi

I found myself in Koryu and I prefere it much than Gendai. I found many impresive things in traditional martial arts but unfortunatly I didnt find impresive things in modern arts. Maybe I didnt search enought
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Bushi
You are very lucky to have a Koryu school available. In the US this is next to impossible. If you want to study Nihon arts in US you have to settle for Gendai. Either way from your experience and research, is there a Gendai ryu that comes really close in similarity to a Koryu? Which?
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jng44
please enlighten me. What does this koryu or gendai ryu karate style have that TKD, TSD, chinese kempo, hapkido, MT, WC and other arts dont? This truly is a curiousity I just dont understand what traditional or modern japanese striking arts have that others dont?
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Bushi
I am the one confused. We are talking about the two types of Jujutsu.

For those not familiar...

I would say 9 times out of 10 when you see a Jujutsu school it is Gendai ryu. meaning not that very old, meaning not actual Samurai style of hand-to-hand. The actual schools and their affiliates are very rare, next to endangered. If some one has the opportunity to train inan Actual Koryu (Ancient school-pre 1868) Jujutsu dojo they are lucky. It really has nothing to do with having something that others do not. The only problem you run into is most Jujutsu school claim to be teaching a Samurai art which they are not since I just said 9 out of 10 are Gendai ryu (Modern Schools)
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setsu nin to
Bushi

Well maybe it would be good to use as example Kansen-ryu. I writted about it yeterday.

Kansen-ryu is modern art which is created from techniques of traditional Jujutsu and Judo. There is nothing new in Kansen-ryu, you may finde techniques from many tradtional ryuhas and Judo (before it become Olimpic sport). So its nice example of ryuha which have combination of old and new.
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Bushi
I agree that Kansen ryu is a good example. I think a real problem when discussing this subject is the lack of universal definitions for some of the things. I think when ppl hear the term "Modern" Jujitsu they think about BJJ which is only partially right.
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jlambvo
Here's my little novella on the subject. Been a while since i've graced you with one of my long-winded posts

I have only personally trained at two gendai "jujitsu" schools, and very briefly at each (some MA friends of mine I met at college belong to one in their hometown, which I went to a couple of times with them. Beyond this, my opinion is formulated on techniques demonstrated in competitions like the UFC that are attributed to a jujitsu background. Although strictly speaking, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as an entity itself is definately gendai, the schools it draws from are not. My perception of koryu jujutsu is based mostly on what I've seen from Takagi Yoshin ryu and Shinden Fudo ryu.

It seems that almost all the jujutsu you will find in the US are systems founded by a westerner who became reasonably proficient in a combination of one or more judo and/or jujutsu variants. The foundation principles of throwing and takedowns that I've seen bear striking resemblences, always in my experience and from recorded events very judo-esque. The intention seems to try bringing more "alive" and self-defense oriented training to what is judo at its core, or jujutsu school that adopted some of judo's technique adjustments.

The tendency seems to be very tight distancing between opponents, a lack of atemi in conjunction with grappling, takedowns that practically land you in breakfalls, necessary BJJ-style groundfighting followups, and little to no attention paid to the potentiality of weapons. Also very often, the systems include the addition of a western or Thai boxing methodology emphasizing hard, generally-targeted hits. Inevitably, confrontation is broken down into respective ranges: kicking, punching, grappling, standup, and ground. A great deal of time is spent drilling specific maneuvers, hitting pads, and doing cardio-vascular conditioning. These approaches greatly reduce the learning curve and quickly produce physically fit martial artists that can hit hard, pull off the general forms of throws/takedowns, and move into submissions.

The jujutsu I'm getting has some stark contrasts. Three vastly important aspects are 1) an assumption that weapons are/will/could come into play, namely that you are armed, and 2) a complete integration with what some would could "surgical" striking throughout the technique and 3) (perhaps unique to Hatsumi-den arts) an emphasis on controlling the spatial relationship between oneself and the opponent more than taking control of the opponent directly.

This third point might sound kind of esoteric or wishy washy, and sadly it's impossible for me to describe it much better than that. But the effect is a fusing of the ranges into a dynamic spectrum. Hatsumi's goal for us is to "reach zero." I have often interpreted this as synonomous with the JKD idea of formlessness, but it has lately come to mean literally always being the origin (0,0) on a grid, and you are aware of this spatial relationship with opponents on a more subtle level. I see this kind of manipulation and control of space occuring in Systema demonstrations. Essentially, there is no division of ranges per say, they blend together, and the same principles apply whether you are standing up, kneeling, on the ground, or somewhere in between.

But a little more down to earth, we will pound the opponent into place with attacks to arteries, organs, weak joints and bones, use flesh tears, body movements, kiai, and so on, and create space to get out a weapon or apply some grappling technique (and THEN pull out a weapon, and so on).

A direct comparison with a seoi nage (shoulder-throw) between a lot of Americanized jujutsu and a version from Takagi Yoshin ryu (as I've been taught):

In the first, you might close into the opponent and enter a tight body-body position keeping his arms covered so that he cannot hit you. Keeping your feet together and positioning yourself between his legs—turning your shoulder into him and sinking your weight such that has base is immobilized—you pop him up and bend forward, pulling his torso over your hips, using his arm for leverage. The opponent is forced over in a circle and probably lands in a side breakfall.

In an example of the latter, the opponent's arm is captured and turned over (I've had this facilitated by grabbing the tricep with a tearing motion while pressuring the nearby artery with the fingertips), locking the elbow out. You turn in, passing under the locked out arm, and step across the opponent's outside foot to create a deep, wide base (on either side of his outside foot). A rocking motion with the knees topples the opponent toward a nonexistent "third leg," your body simply forms an obstruction that he sort of trips over, and the locked out arm is leveraged to direct the fall in a straight drop onto the head/side of neck.

A fundamental difference is that while the former style of throwing utilizes a continuous force to move the opponent, the second puts the reciever in a free fall and puts things in the way or impulsively redirects it. This is very useful in putting the receiver in much more potentially damaging landings. The lack of a constant force gives him nothing to work with to recieve the fall safely—you are placed in a bad alignment and then dropped, often hit along the way.
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jlambvo
Hmm... was that too much? Have I killed another thread? Should I cut fat out of my post to make it more digestable?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bushi
Overall, it was a pretty good post. I was really interested in some ppls opinions on the effectiveness and connection with Koryu some Gendai have.

I have a little different take on the Whole Jujutsu subject. I train Jujutsu (Gendai) and I hold that Jujutsu is the Supple Art and as such should be adaptable. I add what works and still call it Jujutsu. It remains Japanese in essence. My philosphy goes as follows (and it may be mis-guided) there were over 700 ryu of Jujutsu at one time. Now I am sure they shared technique and even Philosphy, but I garrantee there were unique attributes to these systems and they are lost. Just like pankration, I think some ways of Jujutsu can be re-discovered if only in the same way they were once formed...by experimenting with what works. Even though I study a system that has its roots in a Koryu, we try to make the system as applicable as possible to the 21 century while maintaining the Traditions of old.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

asag2
Bushi

I am curious, I know this is a little off topic and I apologize. You say in your school you try to apply the jujitsu concepts of old into teh 21st century. I am considering taking up jujitsu and was interested to hear your insight as to whether you think the concepts of jujitsu are applicable to todays situations, such as adapted weapons and multiple attackers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bushi
The key is to not get wrapped up in the Brazilian Jiu jitsu form of the supple art. PPL look at BJJ and say you will be vulnerable to weapons and Multiple attackers. This is true, but True Jujutsu is more than anything BJJ has in it. True all encompassing Jujutsu has every strike, parry block movement, counter of any good martial art. Remember the "Good stuff knows no home"..but it likes to sleep over in a few arts.

Koryu jujutsu dealt with these problems head on, Multiple attackers..please in a battlefield two Armies charging at each other "Brave Heart Style" you can't get more Multiple than that. And as far as weapons, please once again Jujutsu was designed for a Samurai losing or damaging his primary weapon in combat and having to do some quick hand to hand to deployhis alternate or disarm his advesary..
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Kenjutsu vs Kendo: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 14:53

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Kenjutsu vs Kendo

PULL:
Which one do you like more?
Kenjutsu 100% [ 7  
Kendo 0% [ 0  
Total Votes : 7
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setsu nin to
First to say that its not thread "which one is better".

I am just interesting which one do you like more and why?

Thanks
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Bushi
My training in Kenjutsu is limited at best. I understand close relationship b/w it and Jujutsu. I think it is an Awesome art with even less instructors than Jujutsu. As far as Kendo, I have never trained in it. I would not be opposed to trying it, but once again instruction is scarce. I think Kenjutsu does not serve a Bujutsu purpose today, it has a more BUDO function. I do feel it helps your Jujutsu, but that is about it. Now, Kendo seems to serve its true purpose as Budo and from what I hear helps its practitioners find Mushin better than most arts...Just my humble Opinion.
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setsu nin to
I like more Kenjutsu too, which doesnt mean that I dont respect Kendo. I realy respect Kendo, but I just like more Kenjutsu.

Advantage of Kendo was that they used safety equipment (men, mo, tare, kote...) and shinai which is more "soft" than boken. But today you may finde much more "soft" swords for practicing than shinai is so that you even dont need any more safety equipment. So there is no more need for all that safety equipment in "sparings" today.

Also in Kenjutsu you use more real sword than in Kendo, which I prefer more.

In my opinion problem of Kendo is that you have to use strict techniques and in Kenjutsu you are free to improvise, also Kendo is more limited with techniques that Kenjutsu.

I dont say that Kendo is not good or anything like that, I just say that I prefere Kenjutsu.
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confusingDot
i've always liked sword fighting, and want to take fencing, or something else with sword play. is there any style which which they might incorporate kicks, and other forms of attack with the fighting, and a style in which the sword is straight so that there can be stabs, AND slashes. so far i've been also thinking about kali, or other filipino mas because the sword or knife can easily be switched with the escrima stick, but it seems as though they still odn't even use alot of stabbing. so yeah, any other styles other then this and kenjutsu, and kendo that i should look into?
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bamboo
I would prefer any style of kenjutsu to kendo just because of the art aspect. I love the idea a nice parry followed by a full cut.

I have have only had the chance to watch kendo competition from Japan but find that its just too "one minded": ie, hold the shinai at your centre and attack ,attack attack! IMHO, kenjutsu is more about reading attacker and countering, thus making it much more of a mental endeavor.

Maybe its the aikidoka in me but I love the idea of whoever attacks first loses.


-bamboo
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setsu nin to
confusingDot

You may try to finde some good ryuha in your area. There you may finde hand to hand combat and sword art in same place. But there is not kicking and punching while you use sword. Its moust becouse of bilance. Also you will learn how to use knife too. Try to finde some good Dojo. Good luck!
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setsu nin to
bamboo

I have have only had the chance to watch kendo competition from Japan but find that its just too "one minded": ie, hold the shinai at your centre and attack ,attack attack! IMHO,

Well if you ever try Kendo I belive you will change your opinion. Kendo is much more than just hold the shinai at your centre and attack ,attack attack . Actualy just attack ,attack attack is best way to lose.
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bamboo
Setsu, As you, said "if I ever try it". I will be this weekend at one of the local clubs. Hopefully it will change my mind.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Well you get me wrong, when I said "try" I mean six months to one year, not next weekend.

I am shure that you would like it.
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bamboo
Setsu: It'll be for at least a half year, you can't get a taste of anithing without at least 6 monthes of practice . I focus most of my free time on one art but want to see a different application of the sword other than aikiken. As you surely know, aikiken is used primarly to teach mai-ai and tai-sabaki and not to become a swordsmen.

My only concern is the competition, I'm just not a very competitive person and don't want to get sucked into tournements. I have neither the time or inclination to do so. Do any of you kendo guys/ladies out there have any advice for a first timer?

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Dont worry about first day in Kendo. You wont need any Kendo equipment for some time, only boken maybe. Dont buy all equipment first ask could you rent it and see will you continue to practice Kendo. And what is real important dont forget on rituals. Bows and things like that. Its only thing that you need as begginer.
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jlambvo
Kenjutsu will inherentlly have so much more depth than kendo. Like bushi said, you are made aware of how the kenjutsu works with your other weapons (hopefully), and there are important factors in a real sword art that go by the wayside in sports--big thing that comes to mind is that cutting your oponent doesn't necessarily mean they will stop, you must maintain control of the space and the opponent. That and angling, assumption of multiple opponents, etc.

Kenjutsu provides much more realistic lessons for controlling distance and angling than kendo would, and using it with jujutsu (and knife work) works both ways... you should gain an awareness of how weapons COULD come into play in a seemingly unarmed fight: concealed knives, found objects (sword evasion and counters apply to pretty much any swung object).
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li_siao_lung
Ei confusingDOT,,,,,,,,,,,,


Kenjutsu is better with 9 basic attacks than Kendo which has only 4. However, both require rigid training and focused mindsets as well. I have trained in both and so I have more or less a view in it, Kenjutsu is better in my opinion. Kenjutsu requires focused and dedicated moves while kendo requires snappy moves as its form.
Arnis(or kali if you prefer) is a wonderful martial art. Check out kombatan.org also for more info. In Kali, you translate the swords and knives moves to sticks and it stops at that. But in Kombatan, you add mano-mano. It goes like this: swords&knives-->cane sticks-->hand-to-hand combat. So, it has this "FLOW" tyhat other martial arts claim but are not evident.
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setsu nin to
li_siao_lung

How long did you study Kenjutsu? What school?
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Aikido Atemi Waza: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster:
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 12-03-2004, 17:13

Orginal Post: : Aikido Atemi Waza

bamboo
I thought I would post this article to help clear up some misconceptions of the use of striking in aikido. The author, G. Ledyard is a very well respected member of the aikido community and student of Mitsugi Saotome sensei.

http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm
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setsu nin to
Well I am one of these who dont belive in striles in Aikido. In my opinion some Senseis mixed techniques of OSenseis Aikido with Aikijujutsu or Aikibudo and thats how atemi waza come to Aikido.
As George Ledyard said himself:
The use of striking in the performance of Aikido waza or applied technique is not well documented
Yet other instructors have been known to say there are no strikes in Aikido. A number of practitioners believe that Aikidos peaceful intent is lost when atemi is used...
and here he say something interesting.Hereis reason why some Senseis had to put atemi waza in Aikido
...yet those who have worked to preserve the martial integrity of the art know from experience that any experienced attacker will defeat Aikido techniques if there is no use of atemi.
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Bushi
Setsu


If Saotome Sensei says that Uyeshiba taught him Atemi waza for the better part of 15 years as an Uchi Deshi, should I assume by your belief that he is lying?
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setsu nin to
Bushi

When Saotome Sensei proof that there were atemi waza in OSenseis Aikido than I will belive to that. As his student George Ledyard said there are many Aikido masters who dont agree with him. That Aikido dont have atemi waza is not opinion of few people, its theory which come not from me, it come from Senseis who stuied under OSensei. There are many Senseis of Aikido who support that theory. If you read what OSensei wrotte about aiki and do in Aikido you will see that there is not place for atemi waza. Some techniques had pushing which some Senseis turn into atemi waza and after that they mixed techniques from Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo in Aikido.
Best example for that is Miyako Fujitani and Tenshin Dojo Aikido which is 99% Aikibudo.
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bamboo
Miyako Fujitani (the exwife of steven seagal) never practiced under Osensei. Yoshimitsu Yamada, Rinjiro Shirata, Kenji Tomiki, Mitsugi Saotome, Morihiro Saito and Gozo Shioda all did and all acknowledge and teach use of atemi waza in aikido.

I am not trying to say that striking in aikido has the same intent as say Muay Thai or other striking arts, I am simply saying that it exists and is taught. Osensei practiced martial arts for over 60 years and taught aikido for to a great many students for a long period of time, to take the last years of his life as the only example of aikido waza is to neglect many years of the art. At close to 80 years old he was able to do many techniques without striking, but that does not mean that it does not exist.

The examples of students I gave in first paragraph span the entire spectrum of aikido development and all teach atemi waza.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

That was example of Some techniques had pushing which some Senseis turn into atemi waza and after that they mixed techniques from Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo in Aikido.

No, she never learned under OSensei, but she is realy respect Sensei in Japan.

If atemi waza exist in Aikido where it was 50 years ago?

Kenji Tomiki put Aikijujutsu techniques in his Aikido, Miyako Fujitani Aikibudo techniques...

In my opinion "striking" in Aikido is not striking. Its in interest of Aikido to adapt art to people. "Give them what they what." Breaking bilance using palm is not strike, pushing with palm is not strike...
In past people who learned martialarts have much diferent aproach to martial arts that these day. Today moust people whant to become "unnatural powerfull fighters" in 10 days. When they do suscide that say "problemis in art not me". So if I dont become good as O Sensei in 10 days that its problem in Aikido not me. Thats how its goes today. I bet that here on these forum is not 10 people who repeat just one technique for 500 times widouth pause.
Today people what to learn quick and they cant learn Aikido quick so Aikido needed strikes and with strikes it need mixing. Its logical that it will be mixed with moust similar martial ars Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo.

There is one more thing that proof that theory. Many Aikido masters when they talk about Aikijujutsu talk about same art as Aikido. Also they talk about OSenseis aikijujutsu period as about "old Aikido" and funny things like that. Its same that someone say that Savate and Muay Thai are same thing, just becouse they bouth have gloves in ring and ise hands and legs. Thats proof that Aikido today need Aikijujutsu, we live in diferent world that OSensei lived.
In OSenseis time in Japan if you prooved that you are better in combat your opponent would pulled out of combat and thank you for not huring him, there are many examples when defited martial artist ask "winner" could he teach him martial arts... And what can you proof today to some idiot with tons of kokain in his nouse who whant to killyou and who is able to kill his own mother for 10 cents? Will you start assuring him about peacfull way and philosophy of OSensei? Will you try to show him way of peace? Will you try to not hurt him? I hope that noone here whant answer yes and if someone answer yes than god luck.

And in the end I just whant to say that I realy respect OSense and I dont whant that anyone take me whong and think that I dont respect OSensei or something like that.
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bamboo
I certainly don't think you disrespect Osensei. In this subject, I think we can agree to disagree.

-bamboo
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Bushi
I will also agree to disagree

Hey we are using conversational Aikido
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bamboo
Bushi, I never noticed till you mentioned it, but since you did...

1- the conversation presented itself
2- we entered (irimi) with atemi (thats just for you setsu! )
3- we turned (tenkan)and saw the other point of view
4- diffused and harmonized

So, so many applications beyond fighting.

-bamboo
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bamboo
Well Setsu, I thought I would give it one last shot,

IN the book BUDO TRAINING IN AIKIDO as written by Morihei Ueshiba Osensei

pg. 107 in description of technique as written by osensei "Draws his right foot deeply back at the same instant he is grabbed and STRIKES for uke's ribs with his left hand"

pg. 138 "While dropping back on his left leg and STRIKING the face with his left hand

pg. 140 "Shi inches his left foot outward and twists his body to his right outside while STRIKING to the face with his leading hand"

pg. 143 "Recieving with his left , STRIKES the face by bringing his right hand around from the outside"

The list of examples just go on and on. Osensei is very careful to specify when he means strike as opposed to push, and even has punch written in some cases. I was careful to use an edition with exact translations in technical descriptions.

I know this will not change an already entrenched opinion but just wanted to show you I am not full of crap and am not making anithing up myself.

Have a great day,

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

I know this will not change an already entrenched opinion but just wanted to show you I am not full of crap and am not making anithing up myself

I never said samothing like that, I know what are you talking about, and your theory is supported by many authoritys in Aikido.

Also its important to know that book Budo Traning In Aikido was published in 1933 and name of that book was Budo Renshu and not Budo Traning In Aikido . Budo Renshu means Budo Traning , so name of book was Budo Traning widouth that part about Aikido. Name Aikido becomes official and is registered with Ministry of Education in 1942, so 9 years later.

Thats just one more proof what I am talking about. Some respectible Aikido masters changed some real important facts to make some new Aikido which is more Aikijujutsu or Aikibudo than Osenseis Aikido. Fortunately Aikido history is sill here and they cant chenge it.
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bamboo
________________________________________
quote:
________________________________________
I never said samothing like that
________________________________________


I know, more for me I guess, theres just so much crap going around right now I wanted to back mine up

I have a new edition published by sugawara press in 1997 with additions such as the new title, poetry from Osensei and forward by the doshu.
If you know where to get a copy of the original BUDO RENSHU I would greatly appreciate the information. Its a beautiful book and I would love a copy in its original form.

Take care,

bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

If you know where to get a copy of the original BUDO RENSHU

I can look for it, when I finde it I will let you know.
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setsu nin to
bamboo

For now I found reprint that was made in 1978. First part in in Japanese (reprint) and second part is in English. Its for about $450.

For orginal book I have to wait mail. So I will let you know.
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Bushi
quote:
________________________________________
Originally posted by setsu nin to
bamboo

For now I found reprint that was made in 1978. First part in in Japanese (reprint) and second part is in English. Its for about $450.

For orginal book I have to wait mail. So I will let you know.
________________________________________


WOW thats expensive for a book.
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setsu nin to
Bushi

Its not expensive for that caind of book, you cant finde tham in book shop any more and it will have historical value one day. Good and old martial arts books are realy expensive and belive me there are much more expensive, not book, just copyes of book.
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Yamanak-Ha sindo ryu: Previos Forum
Original Poster:
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 12-03-2004, 17:04

Orginal Post: : Yamanak-Ha sindo ryu

bamboo
Can anyone tell me anything regarding the validity of the The "Yudansha Kobujitsu Karate-doh Federation". Or more specifically the "Yamanak-Ha
Sindo Ryu Ju Jutsu" lineage or practice.

I am doing some research for a friend concerning a dojo that is part of and founded by the founder of the above system, I think its abit suspicious and had all the McDojo warning signs but wanted to see if anyone knew anything. I have contacted the founder and dojo cho myself but am still waiting for a response.

Thanks,

-Bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Yudansha Kobujitsu Karate-doh Federation and Yamanak-Ha Sindo Ryu Ju Jutsu ha ha ha I like them. Well its not clasical McDojo its special McDojo.

Chairman of the Yudansha Kobujitsu Karate-Doh Federation is Ron Yamanak, who is also founder of Yamanak-Ha Sindo Ryu Ju Jutsu. So he found the style and found organization to will recognited his own style.

There is no any lineage, becouse clovn Ron Yamanak is founder. He also claim that he is highest legitimately ranked martial artist in North America. He say that he have 9th dan in Shaolin It interesting that he one of his fake titles as Shihan Aiki Ju Jitsu , so hi didnt put which dan he have and full name of style.

Yamanak-Ha Sindo Ryu Ju Jutsu is some patetic wariation of Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu, Shotokan and Okinawas weapons techniques idioticly mixed into one "art".
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bamboo
Thanks Setsu!

I figured as much but really wanted someone elses opinion....strangely, I knew you would answer .

I sent mr. Yamanaka, as well as two of dojo emails asking about his aikijujutsu lineage but have yet to recieve a response. I tried calling the local representative but that also led to a dead end. I find it very hard to believe any man that has over 4 8th dans in only 32 years, but wanted to give him the benifit of the doubt..

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

Pls post it here when you recive it and if you recive it.

You may also ask him who gave him 8th dan in Shaolin

it very hard to believe any man that has over 4 8th dans in only 32 years
Well thats how it goes with McDojos. In two years he would claim that he have four 10th dans and two years late he will claim that he is Soke of four styles.
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Bushi
Setsu and Bamboo,

I simply love this type of investigative system for MAs. I applaud you guys work and wish most people would be scrutinized at least this much.

I belong to a Gendai ryu Jiu jitsu system that would never in a million years claim a lineage to any Koryu Bujutsu. It is similar to the BJJ Judo connection and our system is proud of that. Keep up the good work.
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setsu nin to
Bushi

Thank you very much, Sir.
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bamboo
Thanks bushi.

I just don't like to see good people fooled. People should know what they are getting.

-bamboo
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BLACK PANTA
Yeah Bamboo,

Some great detective work Thanks for the effort you put behind that. Bushi you may have to take some hints from Setsu and Bamboo huh?

9th Dan in Shaolin. Using Japanese system of rank in a chinese art. I smelt this Mc dojo from a mile away. This Yamanaka character. Okay to be honest, I have met with Ron Yamanaka. He told me face to face that the style of Kung Fu he is trained in is the style of Wong Fei Hung. He claimed to be Fei Hung's sucessor. Now I know that Fei Hung HAD no sucessor. I went into the dojo pretending to be a new commer to Martial Arts. I gave him the impression that I look at a lot of MA movies and that is what got me interested.

This guy lied straight to my face, and I have no respect for him. If he takes advantage of my pretend ignorance then I can only imagine, what great stories he tells his new students. He may even tell them He in General Kwan re-incarnated. Oh speaking of wich, he teaches a Japanese system and has a statue of General Kwan "guarding" his office. He dishonours General Kwan's memory with his shinadigens.

Thank you very much for the research Bamboo. And thank you for my anonymity. Sorry I couldn't stay quiet. All these thing comming out about this guy is pissing me off. I have to let everyone how much I loathe this guy now. At first he was a joke to me, now he is a FRAUD and a liar. The thing what really gets me about this guy is his inflated ego and blatant arrogrance.

I am so very pissed I am going to stop my post here because I am getting to riled up about this.
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bamboo
Lets wait for a reply before we lambaste the man. We have to be careful what we say, people have been sued over language used on internet forums so subjects such as these must be treated carefully. Smart business men/women know how to word what they are advertising in a way that will not get them into trouble-ie- I can claim to have an 8th dan in "bamboo kenpo", now we all know its fake but because I invented it and awarded myself that rank, , but because I created the organization and certified the rank,it becomes "truth". At least legally.
Its all semantics.

Everything I have read about said gentleman screams bogus to me in terms of the kung fu and aikijujutsu thus far, but again, I am still waiting for a response. I will happily tell all the qualifications provided to me and let you guys make your own decision as their validity.

-bamboo
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BLACK PANTA
I can only imagine what will be said. We will wait.
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bamboo
I know this is an old thread but thought I would follow up. It has been over a week and have not recieved any replies from both my email or voice mail inquiries. I assume I will not. Its not that they are closed, I had a friend email for a schedule and he recieved a reply within a day.

-bamboo
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BLACK PANTA
lol. and my buddy is recruiting for this school at my work. I told him, but the only way he learns is when he feels.
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setsu nin to
bamboo


You have to give him time to create new lineage

well my friend, it seems that he dont have nothing to proove his lineage.

Send him some idiotic mail how you whant joint to his Dojo and learn his art, how you would give anything to train under 8th dan in Shaolin
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