NKJU
Original Poster: DokanDojo
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 15-03-2007, 20:41
Orginal Post: DokanDojo: Do anyone have knowledge about this organisation?
Post: bamboo:
With nothing more than a quick look at the website I would suggest avoiding this organization alltogether. If they are truly concerned with keeping ranks clean then they would work within the established organization.
Unless you don't think your own "rank" is legitimate, then why pay another group to tell you what you already know.
I say its a money grab and nothing more.
-bamboo>
Post: JAMJTX:
The question was "Does anyone know anything".
Clearly the responder knows absolutely nothing and should have not responded at all instead of making such accusations about a fine organization.
The NKJU is a non-profit organization. In fact, fees are still pretty much what they were back in the 1980's. And they were low back then. Camps, clinics and semainrs with senior inctructors are dirt cheap and often free. Most teachers teach out of thier home or some community center or other part-time venue. Very few teach for a living. Even those who do teach for a living are held to very high standards.
The NKJU was established by Richard Bailalrgeon, the first American student of Motobuha Shito Ryu Karate. He went on to become the U.S. Representative for Seishin Kai Karate Union of Osaka, a post he held for 10 years. He was eventually promoted to 8th Dan by Shogo Kuniba Soke. His student, Tola Lewis, now heads the organization. Senior teachers are Bill Knoblock, one of the most powerful Karate fighters I have ever seen. He's somewhat humble, but I put his Goju Ryu atleast on the level of Morio Higaonna. Again, he teaches at of his home. In the years that I trained there I think I paid an average of about $5/class. (With all of about 8 students, you can see how much of a money grubber he is)
In the NKJU, you can expect high level training with very high standards and reasonable, if not cheap fees.
Please ignore the ignorant, ill-informed post above.
Jim Mc Coy>
Post: bamboo:
Read the first line of my post. It clearly says "with nothing more than a quick look at the website".
Now, thank you for "informing" the rest of us. I have some questions for you since you seem quick to represent the group.
NKJU- Is this the same group that D. Craig went on to head after Richard Bailalrgeon left? I ask because
1, the name you used is either spelled wrong or is a different person than what I have read.
2. I've read two histories regarding this group. One stated it was started in 1974 by Richard P. Baillargeon who led until the gentleman you mentioned took over while other states that mr. Craig took over in 1980.
Now- when looking at the this site http://www.nkjui.com/nkju_nkjui.htm
it is made rather clear that the organization in question is (and I quote) "martial arts certifying organization. Though not directly affiliated with Korea or Japan, we are comprised of varying arts and systems teaching traditional martial arts of the Orient".
You see, I really don't care about senior karate fighters or how hard you say you train or even where, I'm wondering as I stated in my fist post that was so ignorant why the original poster would need to leave his current organization to join a second one for "certification", one with no admitted links to japan?
What is the point?
Why is this group offering others certificates? I have my certificates from honbu in japan, if I join the org. will they somehow be better equipped to recognize my abilities and give me a new certificate? Do they offer promotions? If so, on whose authority?
You see mr. McCoy, I didn't attack the fighters, I attacked the motives behind yet another western group with no current (self admitted) ties to the "home base" using koryu titles like "soke" and offering paperwork. I don't care if Miyamoto Musashi himself is somehow linked, I'm still allowed to question the motives.
I thank you in advance for perhaps going a little further into the org. and perhaps answering my questions beyond simply rewriting what is available on the NKJU-I main website. BTW, you don't have to be rude when you reply as you did your first post here, rest assurred, I can respond in kind.
Oh, and welcome to the forums.
regards,
bamboo>
Post: bamboo:
While doing my own research, I have answerd one of my own questions. It seems Mr. Craig went to head the organization that mr. B left or was removed from (depending who you read). The NKJU was the result.
The question still remains since the original NkJU is now gone, what does the new NKJU offer in terms of "certifications". Plus my above questions.
regards,
bamboo>
Post: JAMJTX:
Richard Baillargeon left the Seishinkai to form NKJU
Darrell Craig the became US Rep for Seishinkai until 1980
Whether Mr. Baillargeon was "fired" or resigned from Seishinkai depends on who you believe. I know there was a dispute over the increase in fees being charged in the U.S. The result was that he left and formed NKJU. By 1980 he and Kuniba Soke had patched up thier friendship and and Kuniba remained as an advisor to NKJU for the rest of his life.
The NKJU is open to instructors of just about any style, although mainly Karate and Tae Kwon Do. Again, it is a non-profit organization that insists on high standards and quality instruction.
There is no reason for anyone to have to leave thier organization and join NKJU. There is nothing on the web site that even remotely suggests that.
I do not know why you make the claim that one needs to go to NKJU and pay them to have thier credentials verified or as a say a "second one". This is just a totally baseless and ridiculous claim. Usually people who shop around for organizations that di such things prove to be what Mr. Baillargeon used to call "paper tigers". He turned down membership applications from many more people than were ever actually accepted. Even today, they don't actively recruit, although new members are welcome.
One applying for membership will be asked to submist credentials and, to my knowledge, have to meet with seniors or the director at some point to become full members. And again, they would be expected to maintain the high standards.
There have been times when standards in schools have declined, but over time those problems are dealt with. Instructors who lack the quality and high standards are dealt with. Usually someone will work with them to try to improve the school or they are out. This has happened a number of times over the years. Students looking for a school can be assured that when they join an NKJU school they will be getting the best possible instruction. Instructors looking for an organization to support them will find a reputable organization with a deep and wide knowledge base with highly skilled senior instructors to support them. And as it is not a "money grab" as is stated in the original reply, there are low fees. There is nothing on the web site that would even imply that it is "just a money grab". There is not even anything on the web site that discusses fees, although I do think it says "non profit" some where.
There are web sites that say things say "send your resume along with payment". Had something like this been on the site where you can buy a certificate, then you can call it a "money grab". But that was also just a totoally baseless accusation, which suggest some sort of hidden agenda, especially since you seem to have known something about the founder and Seishinkai history already then pretended to only know things based on a quick look at the web site.>
Post: JAMJTX:
"Why is this group offering others certificates? I have my certificates from honbu in japan, if I join the org. will they somehow be better equipped to recognize my abilities and give me a new certificate? Do they offer promotions? If so, on whose authority?"
To make sure all is covered:
No one is "offering others certificates". If you want a certificate from NKJU you must join and test. As far as I know, you have to be a member for 2 years before you can test for anything. Atleast I remember that was the rule at one time.
They are better equipped than most American organizations to teach and award credentials. There is nothing on the web site or any literature that remotely suggests that they are better than a Japanese organization.
That's great for you that you have certificates from a Japanese honbu. But certificates can also be be bought from Japanese teachers as well as American. So pieces of paper do not necessarily mean anything. If you were to join, you will be asked to submit those credentials with your application, but the process will surely not stop there. You will have to demonstrate that your knowledge, skills and teaching ability are up to the high standards that are enforced.
When Mr. Baillargeon started the NKJU, I know he held a Shihan title that was granted by Seishinkai. I believe he was a 5th Dan at the time. He also brought in high ranking teachers of other styles who held instructor level credentials from various Japanese and Korean organizations. They had the same authoruty to promote as any Japanese or Korean of the same rank. And now those who came up through the ranks of under them are set to carry on the tradition of excellence and high standards.>
Post: bamboo:
Jamtx
Thank you for your replys. By writing all that out we have something much more solid to go on rather than just the website that simply states that its a certificate verifying organization.
While I certainly accept what you have written I do remain somewhat suspicious based solely on the way they present themselves.
When you mention that the only way to have a certificate verified by them is to join and test, what then makes them stand apart from any other organization already in existence? This makes no sense to me- What then is the point of the "martial arts verification".
"I do not know why you make the claim that one needs to go to NKJU and pay them to have thier credentials verified or as a say a "second one"."
Umm, I didn't, I said quite clearly in my original post that one needs NOT do so.
"One applying for membership will be asked to submist credentials and, to my knowledge, have to meet with seniors or the director at some point to become full members. And again, they would be expected to maintain the high standards."
Great, I would expect someone transfering from one group to another to have to do exactly this.
But again my question- WHAT IS A MARTIAL ARTS VERIFYING ORGANIZATION?
You see mr. Mc Coy, you seem like a reaonable man and I'm not attacking the NKJU-I, I'm simply trying to figure out what in the world the primary service as outlined by the NKJU-I actually is? If they are just another organization and you you simply become absorbed by them, then sit around a table and they do a background search on your paperwork then they are nothing more than a normal organization. There is nothing wrong with that but again I'm trying to figure out the first part of what they offer.
"Had something like this been on the site where you can buy a certificate, then you can call it a "money grab". But that was also just a totoally baseless accusation, which suggest some sort of hidden agenda, especially since you seem to have known something about the founder and Seishinkai history already then pretended to only know things based on a quick look at the web site."
Actually no, everything I know about the founder was available from the first website or one of links from that site. WHen I wrote my third response I had looked abit further.
Now, my "baseless claim" was not a claim at all, if you look at my words they are my opinion and still stand as such. I've never heard of the NKJU-I, none of my collegues had ever heard of the NKJU-I, yet you "claim" (and I feel the word stands here) that they are better equipped than most american groups to teach and award credentials. What makes them better than most?
Again, I thank you for returning to our little forum and answering my questions. As you can see I am not attacking but merely inquiring as I would any group or org. that myself or a friend would consider joining. Please understand that on the internet and especially forums (as I am sure you are familiar with the forums) all we have to go by are words in most cases, so bear with me and please (since you appear to know the gentelmen in question) try to get an answer for my only real question left - What is a martial arts verifying organization? They advertise it- what is it?
So far, it just looks like another group doing nothing different than the rest and if thats the case- great.
regards,
bamboo>
Post: JAMJTX:
You keep calling NKJU an organization that verifies or validates credentials.
That is something that you invented. It is a lie.
There is nothing on the web site that "states that its a certificate verifying organization".
Like any worthwhile organization, the NKJU insists on submitting credentials with a membershhip application. You can't just claim some kind of rank and join. I don't know why insisting on supporting claims of rankings along with a membership application is seen as a problem.
Testing is not a way of "verifying a certificate" as you claim. Testing is a way of earning an NKJU certificate. If you join as a 4th dan and want a 5th dan, you have to test. If you join as a 4th dan and want an NKJU certificate that says you are a 4th dan, then I'm sure you'll also have to test. Although I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that in any organization.
You ask:
But again my question- WHAT IS A MARTIAL ARTS VERIFYING ORGANIZATION?
I have no idea. This is your description of the NKJU.
You say you are not attacking the organization. But then you make up all these terms and accusations. Why do imply that all they do is sit around a table reviewing certificates?
The NKJU goals are clearly stated on the front page of the web site. I don't see it as just a regualr organization. Standards for promotion havd always been considerably higher than most American organizations. They have even been higher than some Japanese organizations I have been in. It has never been easy to earn any credentials from NKJU. The organization exists to promote high quality martial arts training and to bring different styles together to share and train together.
I think they are better equipped than most American organizations because of the calibre of the senior instructors. I have met very few karate teachers who are on the same level as the long serving "chief training officer" Bill Knoblock. Tola Lewis, the current director is a high level Shito Ryu teacher with a very broad knowledge base. You will find high level Kobudo and Jujutsu training as well. I'm not familair with all of the current teachers in the Union.
You won't be reading about NKJU in Black Belt Magazine, or any other rag, because there is not enough money involved. So most will probably not have heard of it. But I can only think of a handfull of American martial arts organizations that I would be a member of these days and NKJU is one of them. I have joined other organizations in the past and even accepted some ranks from other American organizations. But over time, none of them have stood up to the quality and standards I have seen in NKJU over the years.
If you train in Japanese martial arts and it is important to you to keep the Japanese affiliation, then probably NKJU is not for you. If you are just looking for a quality organization where training is placed above money and politics, then the NKJU may be the best for you.>
Post: bamboo:
Jamtx- Thank you for answering the other questions, it certainly helps others make a more informed decision, that is all I wished to do.
In regards to "my description"-
http://www.nkjui.com/nkju_nkjui.htm
first line.
Anyway, again thank you for informing us as to why you hold the opinion you do, it certainly helps others (hey, I fight try to affiliate my club one day with an org. of some sort) make an informed decision.
I would urge anyone on these boards looking to join the NKJU to contact Jamtx for more details.
regards,
bamboo>
Post: JAMJTX:
There is the 1 line that says they are a martial arts certifying organization.
Maybe there is a better way to word that. But part of what they do is certify martial arts instructors and "black belts" - just like so many other organizations (even Japanese organizations).
I can only reiterate that NKJU insists on high standards and testing for promotions. If you are considering becoming a student of an instructor and they have received crdentials from the NKJU, you can rest assured that those crdentials were earned the old fashioned way.
By implying that one can bring thier credentials to NKJU and have them "verified" likens the NKJU to one of the many "soke boards" where you go to them with either a copy of your certificate or resume and they in turn "verify" your credentials by selling you one of thier certificates. That will never happen in NKJU.
There are other organizations who will say your credentials are not legit unless awarded by them. NKJU has never made any such sort of claims.
If someone is happy with the training they are getting and are satisfied with the promotion standards in thier organization, then good for them. On the other hand, if you feel like maybe the standards have slipped and the politics are too bad, or there is an emphasis on money over quality, then the NKJU may be a good place for you to look to get out of that situation. You may find a senior teacher to get you to that next level or you may be welcomed as a senior teacher and be able to play a leadership role. This was one of the reasons why so many joined Mr. Baillargeon in the beginning. They ran into that glass ceiling and would never be promoted again (often for not being Japanese/korean which is a problem mostly cleared up now). In the NKJU they had a voice and their participation was welcome.>
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