The difference between Bujinkan and traditional Jujutsu?
Original Poster: NonSolus
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 26-10-2005, 17:03
Orginal Post: NonSolus: Hi everyone, I'm thinking about learning either Jujutsu or Bujinkan. I'm trained Shukokai Karate for six years earlier but quit due to the increasing gearing towards competitions. (pointfighting sparring)
I believe that sparring is a very valuable tool to learn how to apply techniques under stress but that pointfighting dulls ones instincts in "real" combat.
Therefore I looked for some system that was all about self defense and "real world-techniques", and found out about Krav Maga, which I've been training in for about one year now.
The thing is: although I love the practical applications of KM and _clearly_ see how effective it is, I find that something is missing...
Upon reflection I came to the conclusion that what was missing was the "coolness" of traditional movement systems (i.e. japanese MA) and the... how should I put this.. ceremonies around the training (bowing and so forth).
Now my main focus has shifted (or maybe never did), and I'm looking for something that combines effectivness with style (style style - not ryu-ha style):wink:, and makes me a part of a legacy.
KM is contemporary and doesent have these aspects as far as I'm aware...
Also, it would be kinda cool to train something more traditional, and more for the fun of it (in the KM class I'm currently in its not about fun - life or death training-attitude is what they have there, meaning you train with the mindset that it will be used on the street should the need arise)
What I'm saying is that I no longer feel the need to train for life and death scenarios, the KM-training took care f the need for that; it would be fun to cultivate my mind some more and, you know, just train for the hell of it.
(I'm probably not expressing myself very good here)
I believe that no matter the arts it is only as good as the practitioner (TMA can work in the street if one trains with the proper mindset, methodology and teacher), that is why I thought to myself: "Well then I could continue with something more traditional, since I already am familiar with it."
ANYWAY - I looked around, read around, lurked around on forums and whatnot; and came to the conclusion that I want something that doesent look like some form of kickboxing (which I tried this summer and didn't take overly much to)
Now the choice is between Bujinkan and Jujutsu and I'm wondering what the differnece may be?
I tried Bujinkan but maybe not enough because I think the methodology and mindset in KM are superior... Those situational awarness sesions were unlike anythin I ever experienced and the results were nigh immediate...
Anyway - sorry for this long-ass post... I got problems wrapping thing up - obviously :lol:
If anyone wants to help me out I'll probably define what it is I'm after in more detail.
humbly, the noob:
You gotta give taijutsu more than 1 or 2 sessions. Bujinkan is the orginization by the way. Im very much the power house military style fighter, and I've found that taijutsu, so far, compliments everything and enhances it well, I cant say in your case though. I know you'll find "style" in taijutsu. I cant speak for jiujutsu though cause I havnet done it.>
I'm not familiar with Bujinkan, but I personally enjoyed the "ceremonial" aspect of Ju Jitsu. If you're looking for something that is "formal", Aikido and Ju Jitsu are definately the way to go. Again, this is solely based upon my personal experience. I'm sure there are others out there that will speak up and suggest what they think as well.>
Thanx guys, what I'm looking for is just that: ceremonial (looks cool) but still retains the feeling of effectivness that I found in KM.
I mean - I trained karate for six years and never achieved the kind of awareness that I got from just one semester of KM. Also; I never felt that the techniques(sp?) in karate vere as effective (thats bullshit I realise now), because we barely ever practiced them on pads and stuff...
I suppose it all depends on the training methodology and less on the system?
Also: angryrocker4, do you study Taijutsu? How long have you studied? Can you give me any insights as to what kind of setup exists (traning and method.-vise)?
I know two sessions is barely enough to scrath the surface; it's because of liability issues that the most free sessions offered can be only two - any more and they're liable in case one should get injured (if you're wondering wtf?, I live in Sweden.
P.s: power-house military style fighter?
Does that mean you're also interested in practicality and effectivness?
Btw - one thing I also found lacking in KM was balance; I know it will develop over time but it seems to take longer than it did in karate.
And how did the medical checkup go? Do you know where and when you'll be sent? (did some more lurking) :-)
Anyways, gotta go, work tomorrow...>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
What ju jutsu ryu-ha are available to you? Ju jutsu is a family of arts, just like karate, and may be incredibly different from one another.
The Bujinkan actually include in its list of styles they utilize many koryu ju jutsu names, so as far as I'm concerned you're looking at six of one, half dozen of another.>
I am powerlifter/wrestler/US Army based fighter. Basically Im exellent with the power and strength stuff. If you want someone picked by the neck with one hand, Im the dude. :)
I've been doin taijutsu for about 5 months, the big thing is to learn your balance yourself, if that makes sense, cause no one can tell you how to move your body. The one thing Ive found in taijutsu is that your really studyin the WHY of everything, why you do this and how moving your balance this way does this or that. It eventually comes to look like the guy is hurting himself, if you got an excellent instructor anyways. Its very interesting, stay with it for 4 months to give it an honest go, cause if you just do the first couple, you have a hard time understanding whats goin on. Tease is right too, Bujinkan have alot of schools that one way or another can be found in other japanese arts.
I got back from the check up friday, I have torn cartiledge in my knee, so I get to go about my life again. Tryin to get discharged from the IRR since itd be a waste to call me up again next year.
Yep, I highly value practicality and effectiveness. Thats why Im still in taijutsu. Im gonna try and train with nbotary in a year or so and get me some o' that real kung fu. depends how college goes.
So, basically: taijutsu=good stuff. aiight
angryrocker4: sorry to hear about the knee, hope you get better soon.
TTT: I live in Stockholm so the styles of Jujutsu open to me are: for example: JuJutsu Kai, BJJ, Goshindo, Kaisho Jujitsu Ryu ,Ju Shin Jutsu and Suginoha-ryu.. just to name a few...
One of my concerns is that effectivness is replaced by "technique-gathering" in TMA.
I mean, the stuff covered by now in KM is like: various kinds of jabs, straights, uppers, hooks, elbows and knees. For the legs: frontkicks: mae geri, kin geri, sokuto geri (just to differentiate), various roundhouse kicks, backkicks and so forth... thats plenty to use in sparring and to perfect. The only worries i have is the balance thing, it just doesent happen for me, which sucks...>
Knee is permanent, dont worry, I can still turn over a beetle. :)>
NonSolus - I started in Goshin Ju Jitsu and my teacher (who was my roommate in college) made sure that I learned the "ceremonial" aspects of the art while I was learning the art itself. I really enjoyed it, but unfortunately we had a big falling out and I haven't spoken to him since.
I don't understand what trouble you're having with balance. What's that about?>
nbotary: to be more specific - it's the footwork I guess. I don't feel comfortable in striking and punching like I used to (maybe because I'm constantly trying to make sure the other guy doesent do a "nutjob" on me whil I'm trying to rush him)
Hope this clarifies.
Are you standing square with the guy? You should alwayss stand with one leg in front of the other and give him as small a target as possible. If your feet are parallel, you've got problems and you're running the risk of getting killed everytime you stand in front of someone. I'm not too familiar with Krav Maga techniques, but from what I've heard, it's VERY effective.>
What type of jiujitsu is offered? Could you provide a link?
Post: setsu nin to:
"The difference between Bujinkan and traditional Jujutsu?"
Bujinkan is organization where you may learn nine ryuhas, its not ryuha. In Bujunkan you may learn Jujutsu, Bojutsu, Kenjutsu, Naginatajutsu?>
Here are the links but they're in swedish so unless you know that language...
And they're all pretty vague as to exactly differentiates them...
In case the links to the clubs don't show up, choose Stockholm for district (swedish sp.) and Ju Jutsu for Idrott (sport).
Sorry, I guess I just should go and watch a session or so, but unfortunately my time is limited in the evenings:-(>
nbotary: yeah I'm trying to get adjusted to the new stance they use, it's like a boxing stance with the foot of forward leg slightly bent inwards to counter kicks and kick in return.
However i don't feel it's as stable as the zenkustu dachi (have no idea how to say it in plain english- bow and arrow stance?)>
Thx setsu; i already knew that but just couldn't come up with a better headline.
But you like answered the question in the most straightforward manner possible.
Depending on the dojo you'll probably see a lot less ceremonial practice in Bujinkan dojos compared to traditional jujutsu schools. Here we usually bow in and out, and use a handful of courtesy phrases during training... this is what I hear its like at many other places too: simple attention paid to the training itself.
It CAN vary quite a bit--there is plenty of etiquette from our traditions and some Bujinkan schools emphasize this more than others.
Frankly I think it is rare to find a teacher who practices such rituals earnestl and respectfully, instead of just trying to "be a samurai." I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I think there is a certain attitude you need to approach other peoples' traditions with :)
My girlfriend is currently studying Capoeira with Mestre Yoji Senna, and there is definately a kind of life to their training that makes me appreciate the value of culture in TMA in a way I haven't been exposed to. I intend to do a Buddhist studies in Japan next fall, and get some time at hombu dojo... hopefully I'll get a first-hand taste of the Bujinkan's cultural roots.
Practically speaking, quality of training in the Buj can vary quite a bit as well. Rank has been handed out rather... um... generously over the past decade, and we ended up with numerous "students of Hatsumi" who have probably only been in the same room with him a couple of times. I believe there is a very valuable reasoning behind Hatsumi's decisions about how loosely regulated the organization is. Keeps you on your toes anyway :)
That said, as mentioned the Bujinkan cirriculum draws from nine traditions which Hatsumi inherited from his teacher. These include a couple traditional jujutsu schools, and Hatsumi's movement is usually reminiscent of one of these (Takagi Yoshin ryu jutaijutsu). We share pretty much the same techniques with other jujutsu lines, but I hear the training is VERY different from more strictly classical practices. I don't have personal experience, but koryu arts in Japan are usually about a ritualized practice of partnered kata the same way they've been performed since they were formalized. Although we have traditional kata (which are of vital importance to the process of course), Hatsumi's art is much more "fluid," almost chameleon, in nature. He claims it is studied the way the martial arts were practiced in Sengoku, alive and changing more than perserving.>
Post: setsu nin to:
nice to see you back...>
Thanks setsu... I've been lurking occasionally, but been in that cycle of training where I'm "doing" more than "talking."
Does anyone else find that they shift between periods of having great physical difficulty but improved intellectual understanding, followed by unexpectedly good movement that you are unable to describe verbally? I really find myself posting a lot when I'm the most frustrated in class.>
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