Reality Fighting
Original Poster: V-for-Vendetta
Forum: Jeet Kune Do Jun Fan Bruce Lee Forums
Posted On: 04-10-2006, 21:57
Orginal Post: V-for-Vendetta: Anyone ever heard of CFA - Contemporary Fighting Arts by Sammy Franco? I have his book entitled War Machine, and I'm thinking about ordering some of his videos. What do you guys think:
http://www.warriorcentral.com
Post: bamboo:
For a fun afternoon of reading, go to Bullshido.com and search for "Sammy Franco Fraud".>
Post: V-for-Vendetta:
I tried searching for it and it said the option was disabled...for whatever reason. I never imagined Franco as a fraud. Oh well, guess the closest book I'll get on reality fighting is a book on Krav Maga.>
Post: bamboo:
Mr. Franco sells everything from videos to "healing spray" (overpriced disinfectant) and his "challenge" is the stupidist excuse to never actually test himself against people outside his so called system. In his challenge, he "reserves" the right to use a gun/knife/whatever and have his friends gang up on you. This is nothing short of bullshit.
If this is his system, then it is sad indeed. His website panders to the paranoid and insecure, this is not a good thing.
I would steer clear if given the choice.
Kravmaga- Easliy turning into one of the biggest mcdojo systems around today. You wanna teach it, all you need is weekend seminar or two. Now THAT is sad. Be careful where you train and from whom you recieve instruction.
-bamboo>
Post: V-for-Vendetta:
Thanks for the heads up bamboo, much appreciated.>
Post: Tatsukage:
You know 5 pressure points and a couple of locks and all of a sudden you're a master. Just as authentic as Rick Tew, eh? Haha.>
Post: V-for-Vendetta:
Franco doesn't believe in pressure points. He's all about using the human skeletal system as the target board.>
Post: opariser1001:
[quote=V-for-Vendetta Franco doesn't believe in pressure points. He's all about using the human skeletal system as the target board.[/quote
what does that even mean?>
Post: zefff:
Joint locks.>
Post: opariser1001:
:roll: why can't they just say so?
also, that sounds more like striking the skeletal system (which makes no sense - and which is what spurred my earlier question) than locking and breaking.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
Why does striking the skeleton not make sense?
When you kick the mid-section are you not trying to break the ribs? When you punch the face, are you not trying to break the jaw or nose?>
Post: Hengest:
[quote=opariser1001 :roll: why can't they just say so?
also, that sounds more like striking the skeletal system (which makes no sense - and which is what spurred my earlier question) than locking and breaking.[/quote
Actually it makes a lot of sense. There's a whole area of Japanese martial arts, koppojutsu, devoted to the practice.>
Post: opariser1001:
so you're saying....there are people who describe their martial art as "striking the skeleton" and that makes sense to you? so if the solar plexus are open for a nice knee or punch, they won't do it? what about the outer and inner thigh? or the eyes? also, they don't want to knock anyone out because that would be going after the nervous system? you either strike or you don't. i hate when people use stupid descriptions for their martial arts....like "we're primarily focused on striking the skeleton"...that sounds so stupid to me. sorry you guys don't agree.>
Post: Robert_RedBeard:
[quote=opariser1001 so you're saying....there are people who describe their martial art as "striking the skeleton" and that makes sense to you? so if the solar plexus are open for a nice knee or punch, they won't do it? what about the outer and inner thigh? or the eyes? also, they don't want to knock anyone out because that would be going after the nervous system? you either strike or you don't. i hate when people use stupid descriptions for their martial arts....like "we're primarily focused on striking the skeleton"...that sounds so stupid to me. sorry you guys don't agree.[/quote
I agree.
My system teaches to kick ass by whatever means.
If you can punch them out safely you do it.
If you can break their arm to stop them you do it.
If you can choke them out you do it.
If you have a stick at hand you use it.
If you have a knife or gun you use it.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=opariser1001 so you're saying....there are people who describe their martial art as "striking the skeleton" and that makes sense to you? so if the solar plexus are open for a nice knee or punch, they won't do it? what about the outer and inner thigh? or the eyes? also, they don't want to knock anyone out because that would be going after the nervous system? you either strike or you don't. i hate when people use stupid descriptions for their martial arts....like "we're primarily focused on striking the skeleton"...that sounds so stupid to me. sorry you guys don't agree.[/quote
1) From what little I know of koppojutsu, the focus of the art is to control the opponent by manipulating their structure in such a way that they cannot do anything and/or break bones. Knockouts are fine and dandy, but I think you'd agree a dislocation in the cervical vertebrae is a fight ender. Permanent paralysis tends to do that.
2) Striking the solar plexus is a good way to win, I won't dispute that. However, that does not mean that one should neglect other fight-ending targets or certain-victory techniques, like a cut kick to the knee joint. Speaking of which...
3) The ONLY reason that anyone kicks the thigh is because kicking the knee joint was banned. We can talk until we're blue in the face about deadlegging an opponent and the usefulness of the outer or inner thigh as a target, but shattering the knee puts somebody down immediately and, barring successful reconstructive surgery, for good.
4) Strike the eye if you want. Unless you use fingertips or isolated knuckles (like the phoenix eye fist), nine times out of ten, you're really hitting the area around the eye. If you're hitting the area around the eye, you might as well aim to break the orbital bone, which has the potential to really fuck up somebody's vision. Or, you could aim lower and try to crack some jaws. Whatever.
5) I am not surprised that a contemporary, MMA-influenced exponent of the arts fails to see the benefits of looking for skeletal attacks, but for fuck's sake, you're acting like we're off our rockers. Have you ever broken a bone? It sucks donkey dick and usually makes you fight like crap. What the hell is the problem with looking to break bones?>
Post: opariser1001:
i'll respond to each point by number.
1. we were talking about striking the skeleton. as for manipulating joints and breaking the neck, that's great, but what I was referring to was striking the skeleton.
2. now, from this one i see you missed my point. i wasn't saying that anyone should neglect attacking the skeleton. who wouldn't wanna break someone's arm, jaw, rib? i definitely attack the ribs all the time in Kyokushin. that wasn't my point. my point was that when people describe their styles in an overly specialized way and try to make it sound all scientific, for example "the human skeleton is my target board" it sounds really stupid to me. as if they are ignoring all other targets or something. it wasn't the act of striking the skeleton that sparked me, but a)ignoring other viable striking targets and b)describing your art as if its so scientific and cool that made me think it sounded stupid.
3. i won't argue with that, i'm sure striking the knee is more effective than striking the thigh, though i don't know from experience. i do think that even in a streetfight where anything goes striking the thigh would have its advantages as well.
4. again, refer to earlier parts of my argument. i'm not arguing against striking the bones. just wanted to call attention to other striking targets.
5. no problem with looking to break bones! i have broken a bone, and it does hurt like hell. i'm sure that by now you see my point, so no further explanation is needed.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=opariser1001 i'll respond to each point by number.
1. we were talking about striking the skeleton. as for manipulating joints and breaking the neck, that's great, but what I was referring to was striking the skeleton.[/quote
Joints, by definition, are the place where two bones meet. You don't get any more skeletal than that.
Quote: 2. now, from this one i see you missed my point. i wasn't saying that anyone should neglect attacking the skeleton. who wouldn't wanna break someone's arm, jaw, rib? i definitely attack the ribs all the time in Kyokushin. that wasn't my point. my point was that when people describe their styles in an overly specialized way and try to make it sound all scientific, for example "the human skeleton is my target board" it sounds really stupid to me. as if they are ignoring all other targets or something. it wasn't the act of striking the skeleton that sparked me, but a)ignoring other viable striking targets and b)describing your art as if its so scientific and cool that made me think it sounded stupid.
Then you should say that instead of saying that "striking the skeleton" sounds stupid and that you're sorry we don't see things your way.
Quote: 3. i won't argue with that, i'm sure striking the knee is more effective than striking the thigh, though i don't know from experience. i do think that even in a streetfight where anything goes striking the thigh would have its advantages as well.
Like what? He might hobble home? Kicking the thigh is only worth your while in sporting situations. Period.
Quote: 4. again, refer to earlier parts of my argument. i'm not arguing against striking the bones. just wanted to call attention to other striking targets.
Again, you should say that before you take a disrespectful tone.
Quote: 5. no problem with looking to break bones! i have broken a bone, and it does hurt like hell. i'm sure that by now you see my point, so no further explanation is needed.
Yeah, your point is that I am right. Like I always am.>
Post: opariser1001:
Quote: Joints, by definition, are the place where two bones meet. You don't get any more skeletal than that.
uh....do you not see the difference between striking and applying locks with the intent of breaking? wtf?
Quote: Then you should say that instead of saying that "striking the skeleton" sounds stupid and that you're sorry we don't see things your way.
i said "i'm sorry you guys don't agree." perhaps i shouldn't have said that, as there was no need for it. however, why are you taking particular offense to it? what the hell do you care?
Quote: Like what? He might hobble home? Kicking the thigh is only worth your while in sporting situations. Period.
Like what? like maybe you are in a situation where you have a little time to fight this guy. so say he's a big guy and is going after you hard at first. so you are engaging with him but at the end of every little flurry you throw a low kick. after 2 or 3 on an untrained leg, they will add up, slow down his movement, giving you the time to jump in there and either a)knock him out or b) throw some shots and get back out.
if they work in an MMA situation, why the hell would they not work in a street situation? jesus dude....you're just trying to argue now. are you seriously arguing the effectiveness of low kicks? have you ever been kicked in the thigh?
Quote: Again, you should say that before you take a disrespectful tone.
okay internet warrior.....
Quote: Yeah, your point is that I am right. Like I always am.
sigh....>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=opariser1001 uh....do you not see the difference between striking and applying locks with the intent of breaking? wtf?[/quote
Yes, I do see the difference. The difference is that to apply a lock, you have to enter into the grappling range and are then dedicating just about every part of your anatomy to one opponent. In terms of self defense, this is a huge mistep as one should ALWAYS be concerned with multiple opponents and the ability to escape the immediate area instantly. So, instead of slapping on a kneebar, you put a roundhouse kick to the outside of the knee. Instead of slapping on a guillotine choke, you knuckle jab the throat. You'll get the same effect, more or less, and you retain your ability to get the hell out of Dodge.
Quote: i said "i'm sorry you guys don't agree." perhaps i shouldn't have said that, as there was no need for it. however, why are you taking particular offense to it? what the hell do you care?
What the hell do I care? Huh, well, as I've said countless times before, some people come to this site looking for information that will help them protect themselves. Some of these people are so inexperienced and/or unknowledgeable of the martial arts, that whenever anyone here makes a post about what works or what should be done, they may very well take it to heart. Some of those people may actually find themselves in a situation where they need to use this information. If somebody thinks that they're going to stop a mugger with Muay Thai, they'll probably wind up like Alex Gong. If you don't understand what I mean, run a google search.
Quote: Like what? like maybe you are in a situation where you have a little time to fight this guy. so say he's a big guy and is going after you hard at first. so you are engaging with him but at the end of every little flurry you throw a low kick. after 2 or 3 on an untrained leg, they will add up, slow down his movement, giving you the time to jump in there and either a)knock him out or b) throw some shots and get back out.
1) If you have time for 2 or 3 leg kicks, and flurried to set them up, you had time to run away, pull a weapon or otherwise end the fight. The longer you spend in a hostile environment with even a slightly committed opponent, the greater your chance at severe injury or death. Your goal in self defense situations should always be to minimize your exposure to self defense situations.
2) As I've said a billion times before, self defense is as much or even more about what you do before a fight starts than what you do during a fight. If you have a big guy coming after you hard, you already messed up.
Quote: if they work in an MMA situation, why the hell would they not work in a street situation? jesus dude....you're just trying to argue now. are you seriously arguing the effectiveness of low kicks? have you ever been kicked in the thigh?
Now, you're just being stupid. In an MMA situation, you have one person, no weapons, a ref looking out for your safety, a doctor to make sure you don't get hurt too badly, a set of rules, a time limit, etc. In a street situation - which is just as likely to occur in stairwells, parking garages, bars, bathrooms, liquor stores, etc. - you do not have anything in place to keep you from being killed. What is going to help you against a guy with a knife? BJJ? Don't be ridiculous. Muay Thai? I guess you could try it if you really want to bleed a lot. I'm not being argumentative, Opa, I'm trying to shake you from your delusions. And yes, I've been kicked in the thigh. I've also been kicked in the ribs, the knee, the balls and the head. By far, being kicked in the leg is the most agreeable to me.
Quote: okay internet warrior.....
You got me. I'm a faux tough guy. That's why I don't dress up in a gi several times a week, kicking baseball bats to prove how strong I am, or sucking the nuts of anyone with a professional fight record because they MUST have the secrets of the martial arts world on lockdown. For fuck's sake, Opa, get your head out of your ass.
Quote: Yeah, your point is that I am right. Like I always am.
sigh....[/quote
Did you miss my track record?>
Post: opariser1001:
Quote: Yes, I do see the difference. The difference is that to apply a lock, you have to enter into the grappling range and are then dedicating just about every part of your anatomy to one opponent. In terms of self defense, this is a huge mistep as one should ALWAYS be concerned with multiple opponents and the ability to escape the immediate area instantly. So, instead of slapping on a kneebar, you put a roundhouse kick to the outside of the knee. Instead of slapping on a guillotine choke, you knuckle jab the throat. You'll get the same effect, more or less, and you retain your ability to get the hell out of Dodge.
in response to this, i'm gonna quote you some of our previous argument. but before that, let me just point something out. we are not arguing the effectiveness of a strike vs. a lock in a self-defense situation. the point was, i was referring to striking the skeleton, and then you brought up joint locks as if it was even part of the discussion. it's not. this is what you said:
Quote: From what little I know of koppojutsu, the focus of the art is to control the opponent by manipulating their structure in such a way that they cannot do anything and/or break bones. Knockouts are fine and dandy, but I think you'd agree a dislocation in the cervical vertebrae is a fight ender. Permanent paralysis tends to do that."
i then said that that's not what i was talking about. you randomly brought joint locks into the discussion, when we were talking about STRIKING the skeleton. then, as if you still don't get it, you say that you can't get any more skeletal than joints....as if just to piss me off. I know that joints are part of the skeletal system, but again, we were not talking about breaking joints, we were talking about striking the skeleton. then last post when i tried to point out the difference between what we were talking about and what you kept bringing up (with no point), you replied with a long-winded post about how striking is much more effective self-defense wise than grappling.....which is quite contradictory to your earlier statement, which i highlighted in bold for your convenience. heh.
anyways....
Quote: What the hell do I care? Huh, well, as I've said countless times before, some people come to this site looking for information that will help them protect themselves. Some of these people are so inexperienced and/or unknowledgeable of the martial arts, that whenever anyone here makes a post about what works or what should be done, they may very well take it to heart. Some of those people may actually find themselves in a situation where they need to use this information. If somebody thinks that they're going to stop a mugger with Muay Thai, they'll probably wind up like Alex Gong. If you don't understand what I mean, run a google search.
but i wasn't giving any advice. what you seemed to get upset about was me saying "i'm sorry you guys don't agree." that has nothing to do with some new kid on the site who is reading these posts. that is definitely besides the point. again, i was NOT giving anyone advice, just arguing with you about the phrasing of something which i thought sounded stupid. so...i think you can probably see how what you just said is actually not an answer to my question of "what the hell do you care?"
Quote: 1) If you have time for 2 or 3 leg kicks, and flurried to set them up, you had time to run away, pull a weapon or otherwise end the fight. The longer you spend in a hostile environment with even a slightly committed opponent, the greater your chance at severe injury or death. Your goal in self defense situations should always be to minimize your exposure to self defense situations.
2) As I've said a billion times before, self defense is as much or even more about what you do before a fight starts than what you do during a fight. If you have a big guy coming after you hard, you already messed up.
i'll give you this one, you're right. i was thinking in terms of more like an open area with nobody around, just you and your opponent. which is usually not the case. if you're in a hostile situation, you probably don't have enough time to be setting things up with low kicks and whatnot. ok.
Quote: Now, you're just being stupid. In an MMA situation, you have one person, no weapons, a ref looking out for your safety, a doctor to make sure you don't get hurt too badly, a set of rules, a time limit, etc. In a street situation - which is just as likely to occur in stairwells, parking garages, bars, bathrooms, liquor stores, etc. - you do not have anything in place to keep you from being killed. What is going to help you against a guy with a knife? BJJ? Don't be ridiculous. Muay Thai? I guess you could try it if you really want to bleed a lot. I'm not being argumentative, Opa, I'm trying to shake you from your delusions. And yes, I've been kicked in the thigh. I've also been kicked in the ribs, the knee, the balls and the head. By far, being kicked in the leg is the most agreeable to me.
my answer to the previous quote covered this. but just as a sidenote about my 'delusions.' i am not some MMA madman. i practice 2 very traditional arts that are heavily self-defense based, plus boxing. Kyokushin and Japanese Ju-jitsu are both pretty traditional....just so you know that i'm not some guy who trains nothing but MMA and then decides that it's the most effective thing in the world. though i do think it could be used in many self-defense situations, i realize that there are situations where an MMA gameplan could get you killed.
Quote: You got me. I'm a faux tough guy. That's why I don't dress up in a gi several times a week, kicking baseball bats to prove how strong I am, or sucking the nuts of anyone with a professional fight record because they MUST have the secrets of the martial arts world on lockdown. For fuck's sake, Opa, get your head out of your ass.
ha you're gonna make fun of me for kicking a baseball bat? my teacher told me i was doing it about a week before the actual demo, so i did it. not trying to be tough. in Kyokushin, when your teacher tells you to do something, you do it. and, when have i sucked the nuts of pro fighters? it has NOTHING to do with thinking they have the secrets of the martial arts. i just respect them because they are at a place in life where i would like to be, and have the courage to step in the ring and fight, which I value as a form of personal growth.
Quote: Did you miss my track record?
wanna know why you always seem to 'win' arguments? because you pull the crap you did with me this time, and steer the argument in other directions when someone has you cornered, and nitpick about little facts that have nothing to do with the argument....until finally the other person just gives up trying to talk to you because it got boring and it's so obvious that you are one of those people who can never be wrong.>
Post: zefff:
BWAHAHAHAAA!!! Just ban his ass Oz! Go on mate, you can do whatever you like while Matt is away!!! :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Must admit I laughed hard when I read the bit about kicking bats in a gi! :lol:
1 round each on my card! :roll:>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=opariser1001 i then said that that's not what i was talking about. you randomly brought joint locks into the discussion, when we were talking about STRIKING the skeleton.[/quote
Listen, dumbshit. You don't need to apply a joint lock to dislocate joints, break joints, etc. THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT. Until you can learn to read, this conversation is over.>
Post: opariser1001:
lmao! since when were you trying to convey that point? ha! resorting to namecalling....poor guy....
everytime you couldn't come up with something to answer one of my points, you would go off in some separate, random direction with your entire argument. and instead of namecalling, why don't you try addressing some of the issues i called you out on. "dumbshit."
Zefff-lol!! even if Matt was here I'm sure he wouldn't mind me banning TTT!>
Post: zefff:
I was only joking, but I really love reading internet beef. Also I did get the impression from Des that he was talking about attacking the bones and joints by other means besides locks. Wasnt the whole thing on the knees about that?
Anyway final round: ARE YOU READY?!?...ARE YOU READY?!?...LETS GET IT ON!!! :lol:>
Post: Robert_RedBeard:
You guys are so bad.
At least you can do it with a smile.
LOL
Or is that a smirk?
Here's my opinion again.
My system teaches to kick ass by whatever means.
If you can punch them out safely you do it.
If you can break their arm to stop them you do it.
If you can choke them out you do it.
If you have a stick at hand you use it.
If you have a knife or gun you use it. (EDIT: Only if it is legal.)
Obviously a warrior is gonna have to learn a wide range of skills to cope with changing enemies and situations.
You can only train to face the reality you precieve. It is reality fighting we are talking here. We aren't talking about the ring, where there are rules.
So inherently, anything goes. Only ego and honor hold you back. Right?
The thing being, that you cannot really go out and legally test reality fighting. So inherently, a lot of it is under the assumtion that what workd in the ring should work on the street. Or what was written about hundreds of years ago will also work as well or at all.
Here and there, you find a soul that has had an unfortunate enough life to have had plenty of occasions to test their fighting skill for real.
Me, I'll fight just becasue someone wants to fight. But that's just me. Call me romantic or stupid. I think there is something to this alpha male thing. Some people need a lesson and will only get it when a single soul makes the effort to teach them.
Sometimes all it takes is standing up. Sometimes you ahve to beat them.
I don't think all people should even try this. I'm just an asshole that way.
I know there are a lot of tough guys out there with less skill than me that I can test things out on. I know they are what I must guard against anyway. Every once in a while I find someone that is pretty good. Then II get bruised and battered..
Been worth it so far. Scars and all.
But in reality it has taught me that you will face all kinds of things. All kinds of situations. Sure you can't train and test all those things. Mother nature is always coming up with new ways to test us.
But you can train for the threat you precieve.
To me that is basic striking:
Kicks
Punches
Elbows
Headbutts
Knees
Stomps
Basic grappling:
Avoiding the Takedown
Takedowns
Releasing yourself from various grabs, locks and chokes
Utilizing various grabs, locks and chokes.
Whatever else you can learn.
That is a reality fighting system to me.>
Post: opariser1001:
ha Zefff i was joking too, i would never ban TTT, there's no reason too, plus he's funny.
anyways i never got that impression, and if he meant that, i think he should have come out and just said it. as for the argument, i don't feel like talking about it anymore. Tease is one of the most stubborn people i've ever met, either in real life or on the internet. so there's really no point....plus i'm pretty stubborn too, so that makes for a bad combo! :lol:>
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