Kickboxing - does this sound like a good school?
Original Poster: Like The Roman
Forum: Kickboxing & Boxing Forum
Posted On: 19-05-2007, 22:33
Orginal Post: Like The Roman: This is an email I received from the instructor:
"Our style utilises a Western Boxing stance, guard and punches with Kickboxing kicks, though there are some Muay Thai kicks and traditional Martial Arts parrys/blocks added in too."
Does this sound like a good mix?
By the way - I´m new on here, and just thought I´d give you a few details about me: I´m 28, from a traditional karate background, though a few years ago I boxed for around six months - and was very impressed with WB. Now I´d like to try kickboxing for fitness and self-defence.
Post: bamboo:
Try it out and ask politely to spar with the instructor.
Sparring with him shuld give you a nice gauge on how well what they do works. I'm doing the same next week ata couple of grappling gyms.
-bamboo>
Post: Like The Roman:
Quoting: bamboo;49286 Try it out and ask politely to spar with the instructor.
Sparring with him shuld give you a nice gauge on how well what they do works. I'm doing the same next week ata couple of grappling gyms.
-bamboo
Good idea, though I have only ever boxed full-contact - never kickboxed. Kumite was always (supposed) to be semi-contact - if you drew blood from your opponent you were deducted points, disqualified, so I´ll be óut of my depths, really.>
Post: zefff:
Hahaha! Ask to spar? Man you will get slapped up straight! I can see it now...it all goes quiet except for one or two sharp intakes of breath from disbelieving students...they all draw back and form a loose cicle... instructor gives a little laugh like "Ha!" before accepting...you square up and the bout begins....you throw a light jab and maybe a front snap kick then......WATAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!! He flys in with a spinning, hook kick to your head, Muay Thai clicnh for some Anderson Silva style knees to your Rich Franklin like nose, followed by a running, flying side kick to your ribs and it all ends with him jumping on your head and groin!
Here is what happened to the last guy: You are Bob Wall BTW! :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1z7ELBVK6k>
Post: bamboo:
Meh, I've done it before and frankly I'm just sick of guys that talk a great game but suck.
If your not comfy with the teacher ask to go with a student...>
Post: Triple T:
[quote=Like The Roman;49284 "Our style utilises a Western Boxing stance, guard and punches with Kickboxing kicks, though there are some Muay Thai kicks and traditional Martial Arts parrys/blocks added in too."[/quote
This sounds like a very typical, straightforward "American" Kickboxing school. All kickboxing gyms in the States that are not labeled as Muay Thai have curricula that sound just like this. On paper. The proof of the pudding is in the taste, as they say, so swing by the gym and observe a class. Ask if they have something like a "trial" period where maybe you can get a class or two for free without committing to the school.
Expect full-contact with safety equipment, bag work, agility drills and a round structure all similar to your boxing training. Welcome to the forum.>
Post: Gazelle:
[quote=Triple T;49304 This sounds like a very typical, straightforward "American" Kickboxing school. All kickboxing gyms in the States that are not labeled as Muay Thai have curricula that sound just like this. On paper. The proof of the pudding is in the taste, as they say, so swing by the gym and observe a class. Ask if they have something like a "trial" period where maybe you can get a class or two for free without committing to the school.
Expect full-contact with safety equipment, bag work, agility drills and a round structure all similar to your boxing training. Welcome to the forum.[/quote
Sounds similar to what we had in our syllabus too, apart from my teacher was from a kung fu background (unfortunately he didn't teach that there anyore:-(), but, yes, we did the same punches boxers do, but our 'training' was less focussed on our arms, than i think it was with boxers. The boxing does suggest it will be less semi-contact based than what i did, but, obviously, they'll be light sparring, and, yes, definately lots of bags. You will hopefully notice a difference between boxing and kickboxing training though...you do a lot more kicks in drills, and a lot more leg training (surprisingly enough), you'll probably get slow kicks too...everybodies favourite:lol::wink:.
As far as self defense goes...there may be some specific self-defense techniques integrated into the syllabus, though, they're normally requirements for higher grades, in my limited experience. The actual 'kickboxing' itself, depending on how one draws that line, you'll generally find that there are better things for self-defence, i believe. We were always taught, and, it does makes sense, that, realistically in a self defense situation the only kicks that you would probably get in would be maybe ones around shins/knees, and possibly some 'kneeing' too, as it's generally close up, which, sort of make the majority of the kicks, in the majority of situations void of use. The punching techniques, being that they are basically what you do in boxing (though if it is like what we did you will do a couple that boxing don't that could be useful, but being that your from karate background, you've probably done them in some form or other already), so you can pretty much judge for yourself how useful they'd be. The parrying and blocks could come in handy, but, generally, i think the more useful self-defense techniques (though, i think that training in something generally helps at any rate) are generally only taught with that purpose in mind, and normally out of the context which i think the instructor described. Basically, given what they've said, i'm not sure how much better for self-defense it would be, given karate and boxing background it will be, but, still, hard to judge from a few lines of writing. The best things to do would be to go and see. And, if it's not, should be good for your general fitness:mrgreen: (the smile more apt than the yellow ones, besides, colour pretty cool).
Well, i reckon that's no help, but, there we are, i tried.lol.>
Post: The BadBoy:
If you want good kickboxing find a Muay Thai gym. you'll get good powerful punches and solid kicks aswell as a good clinch game for striking.
A coach doesn't have to be a good fighter, he has to be a good coach. if you want to spar with someone then ask to spar with a senior student but keep in mind he is more than likely gonna try to take your head of for having thenerve to ask if they are any good.
Also take a look at the ability of teh senior students, are they all just attribute junkies or do they have some thought, technique and conceptual process in what they are doing. Not easy for a begginer to spot though, so here are a few tips. Are they bobbing and weaving slipping everything or do they actually have a tight defense to go with all the movement. Are their techniques sharp and tight or loose. When they parry do they overextend? When sparring do they turn their heads away from punches?>
Post: bamboo:
I know MT is considered on the best if not teh best by many people but at least try the american kickboxing class. It seems to me that everyone and their mom is doing MT now.
In the ring setting, whenever you see someone really good that doesn't go cookie cutter (BJJ + MT + wrestling takedowns) you end up with quite the show. Anyone remember vitor vs. sak? Maurice smith?
-bamboo>
Post: Triple T:
Furthermore, the ultimate "father" of most American kickboxing schools is Joe Lewis, a huge figure in full-contact karate and collaborator of Bruce Lee. While very few gyms these days bother to tell you where their lineage lies, if you're in the English speaking world, and the gym isn't labeled specifically for Muay Thai or Sanshou, it's probably American kickboxing. The significance being that Joe, like Bruce, was aware of hard hitting styles like MT without being swayed by them. The typical jab should be direct and snappy, showing the Wing Chun influences, and kicks have a tad bit more utility than the sledge hammers that MT people call kicks. Although, your clinh game may suffer since neither full-contact karate nor kickboxing (outside of MT) really want the clinch. They want to see expertly executed strikes. If you have plans of using this training in an MMA format, be sure to crosstrain a tad so you can get used to clinch situations.>
Post: Like The Roman:
Thanks for your help, guys. I have many local MT schools, and know it´s a good art - however, from the MT fights I have seen, the better boxer usually seems to win. The kicks are awesome, though.>
Post: zefff:
The better boxer will win regardless of the art...but its not the art anyway, its the school that counts.>
Post: dscott:
It's not the school....it's the fighter.:-P>
Post: bamboo:
Robots still beat fighters.>
Post: The BadBoy:
Actually I believe it's a combination of the art, the school and the fighter. You do get superior arts, you do get superior schools and you do get superior fighters. I trained kickboxing for 4 years at a gym with 2 world champions. Gimmie a good boxing or Muay Thai gym anyday.>
Post: Triple T:
ninjas still beat robots. Which is why Hengest is President of Ninjania (formerly Robotopia).>
Post: bamboo:
The robots shall rise again TTT. Perhaps as robot ninjas or even robots studying as ninjas or even right now, as I type this, a robot has managed to wear a Hengest disguise and is sitting in the shuriken shaped office of the presiedent of Ninjania with his metal finger on the button.>
Post: Triple T:
Is this where the camera closes in on the face of one of those Robosapien toys and the music goes dun dun DUN?>
Post: bamboo:
The camera would shift to a shifty eyed dog, shifting his eyes....
[IMG http://www.script-o-rama.com/blog/shifty.gif[/IMG [URL="http://www.script-o-rama.com/blog/shifty.gif" [/URL >
Post: lakan_sampu:
what karate school did you come from?
I have a somewhat similar (but off-topic) situation. My first art is Shotokan Karate and my rank is 8th kyu. 4 years ago I stopped training when I went to college. I got exposed and trained in Kombatan (an FMA by Ernesto Presas) in my stay at the university. I just graduated from college last month, and am back in my hometown. Right now, I'm training again in Shotokan, although not as intense and satisfying as my FMA.
After having some sparring matches (point system) with our 4 black belts, I noticed that among the other students, considering I did not train in Karate for 4 years, I'm the only one capable (so far) of scoring points against our BBs. I can go toe-to-toe with them. I just realized that because of palit-palit (in which I developed better footwork)training in Kombatan, I am at least at par with our BBs on utilizing ranges to strike. While their typical way of evading strikes is by stepping backward or sidestepping away, mine is usually by stepping actually towards them but at the same time out of the strike's range (I hope you are getting the idea in spite of how I write in english) and countering. I'm better at in-fighting, at least in my own perception. Our blackbelts are themselves adjusting to how I move in kumite, and told me that they're surprised that I'm not timid given my 4 years of training in another art. Another told me that she is surprised by my commanding (is my term right?) attitude in kumite, given the same reason as above.
Another thing is that considering the significant difference on Karate and Kombatan's forms (not kata, form as is, how I move), I'm facing little difficulty in adjusting, although my form in Kombatan becomes obvious in sparring.
The question now is: is this good? what do you guys think?>
Post: bamboo:
Damn right its good!
You took the footwork from a martial art and are making it work for you under a different situation.
I have a question for you- If they are used to sparring and are dan rank holders and your at thier skill level as far as your own defense/offense capabilities- why bother with this school?
If your at thier level then why not find a place where your really challenged?
-bamboo>
Post: The BadBoy:
^^^^^^^^ What he just said. You'll only ever be as good as your training partners.>
Post: zefff:
Yes, they will feed on you and sap your skills...you will be assimilated back into the art as you lose your FMA. You need to keep the training up to keep the skill.
Get back into FMA now!...or is it really as hard to find Escrima/Arnis/Kali on the islands as they say?>
Post: Triple T:
The most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat an opponent who already knows everything you can do. The easiest way to know everything about another fighter is to train with them for some time. Therefore, the most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat your oldest sparring partner.
Fuck looking for a new school. You're likely to waste time and money. "Skill" is nowhere near as objective as others here would like to pretend it is.>
Post: zefff:
[quote=Triple T;49358 The most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat an opponent who already knows everything you can do. The easiest way to know everything about another fighter is to train with them for some time. Therefore, the most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat your oldest sparring partner.
Fuck looking for a new school. You're likely to waste time and money. "Skill" is nowhere near as objective as others here would like to pretend it is.[/quote
Thats your opinion but he already implied that his old partners offer minimal challenge. I didnt read anything where he mentioned something like,
"They knew all my tricks and were wise to my feints and combinations and were able to nulify any advantages my footwork patterns should give."
I agree that people who know your game are the hardest to spar with but they dont know his game now because he has been away expanding/contracting it.
Skill is not a solid state object but as much as it is about how it relates to others it is equally about control and knowledge of self. If you dont precisely know your own capability how can you quickly measure how you (or your skill) relate to a real foe?
As his condition adjusts to the Shotokan practice, Lakan Sampu will still have the knowledge of Kombatan but the physical and neurological condition he has will be erroded slowly over time. Thats my experience anyway as that is whats happened to me. I would never leave Escrima if I could find a good local class that has a balanced curriculum of all ranges of combat, armed and unarmed. FMA can make a very formidable fighter IMHO with or without rattan as it forces you to honestly experience your weakness so that know your limits.
...Hmmm, maybe it is ultimately up to the honesty and motivation of the student and teacher regardless of the art. The proof is in the pudding though and he pwned them from what I read.
Peace!>
Post: bamboo:
i'll bet he still can't beat a robot.>
Post: Triple T:
[quote=zefff;49360 Thats your opinion but he already implied that his old partners offer minimal challenge. I didnt read anything where he mentioned something like,
"They knew all my tricks and were wise to my feints and combinations and were able to nulify any advantages my footwork patterns should give."[/quote
Sure, but how much time have they had to get wise to the new tricks?
Quote: I agree that people who know your game are the hardest to spar with but they dont know his game now because he has been away expanding/contracting it.
Another case for staying so they can learn how to handle him. Once again, looking for a new school will probably be a waste of time and/or money.
Quote: Skill is not a solid state object but as much as it is about how it relates to others it is equally about control and knowledge of self. If you dont precisely know your own capability how can you quickly measure how you (or your skill) relate to a real foe?
This, of course, makes the assumption that this phenomenon of skill is relatable. Take an example of another skill: solving puzzles like Sudoku grids. How can you take two people and see who is "more skilled" at solving the puzzle? Time them, maybe. But is the solving of the puzzle really about speed? You can measure their accuracy, how many times they make a mistake and have to correct themselves, but what if neither makes any mistakes given their own parameters for how they solve the puzzle, assuming different methodologies? The same is true of fighting. Who is more skilled? The guy who can cover all ranges or the guy who doesn't need to because he forces one range where he dominates? Who's more skilled, the submission wrestler who can slap a submission from any position or the BJJer who is superb at transitioning to dominant positions where defending his subs is nearly impossible?
Quote: As his condition adjusts to the Shotokan practice, Lakan Sampu will still have the knowledge of Kombatan but the physical and neurological condition he has will be erroded slowly over time. Thats my experience anyway as that is whats happened to me.
Indeed, if he doesn't continue to practice his old skills, he will eventually lose them. But here's where the brilliance of Bruce Lee can shine: once you have mastered the basics of the art - for Sampu, footwork - you can apply them at any time during any other style's training. So, maybe the bulk of his classes at the Shotokan dojo will be the mechanics of Shotokan striking, but when he gets to sparring, he includes the Kombatan footwork seamlessly. Thus, he will never lose that footwork.
Quote: I would never leave Escrima if I could find a good local class that has a balanced curriculum of all ranges of combat, armed and unarmed. FMA can make a very formidable fighter IMHO with or without rattan as it forces you to honestly experience your weakness so that know your limits.
So does all honest training, as you hint at below. You should ask Bamboo about his Grove. :lol: But, as for the ranges et Al., see my comment above.
Quote: The proof is in the pudding though and he pwned them from what I read.
But, to be scientifically rigorous, what precisely is proved in the pudding?>
Post: zefff:
You bin drinkin'? :lol:
1) Why should he stay so they can learn his tricks? He's not the one giving lessons!
2) Look, actual fighting isnt like Sudoku. Fighting is not a solitary affair. The aim is survival and so the skill can be clearly identified as survival skill. You know this already!
The only waste I see is the wasting away of skills he has already invested time, effort and money in, if he settles for what he has rather than seeking a higher level.
Train hard, fight easy. Train easy and the fight will be hard. Panta had a good line in his sig. which put it another way, something like "Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield."
3) He cannot maintain peak skill in a (IMHO) superior method from practising inside and amoungst students of another art. If he feels he has mastered something but fails to continually disect and examine the technique then his understanding and execution of the technique will warp over time. Change is inevitable but it is up to ones own will power to steer the changes in a beneficial direction.
4) What was proved in the pudding was that his abilities were adequate for success in sparring against the top students in the school. I wonder how he does against the top students in his old Kombatan school?...Yes, I would like to know Lakan_Sampu mate! :)>
Post: Triple T:
[quote=zefff;49370 You bin drinkin'? :lol:[/quote
Yes.
Quote: 1) Why should he stay so they can learn his tricks? He's not the one giving lessons!
Because regardless of style, one is only pushed forward when circumstances necessitate adaptation. One of my prefered methods of causing this to happen is an analog to information tech "full disclosure" policies. If everyone knows and has access to the source code of, say, your virus scanner, then those who will try to find the weaknesses will be able to do so and when they do, you can alter the code to close those gaps. If, on the other hand, you didn't reveal your code to the public, it may be a very long time before weaknesses are identified and corrected. So, by giving his Shotokan classmates the ability to see how he fights, he is building a group of testers who will find his flaws more readily than unfamiliar students would.
Quote: 2) Look, actual fighting isnt like Sudoku. Fighting is not a solitary affair. The aim is survival and so the skill can be clearly identified as survival skill. You know this already!
Even if I concede that the analogy is poor, the point remains valid. Given varying methodologies of achieving the same goal, how is "skill" objectified even a little? We like to compare arts and styles here, sometimes, but really ask yourself this: which is overall better, the Muay Thai roundhouse with its power or the Tae Kwon Do roundhouse with its speed? Most people here suck the nuts of MT, so the answer seems pretty obvious, which is why I asked you to ask yourself. After seeing tons of performers in the UFC et Al. grab roundhouses and use them to make takedowns or counter strikes, doesn't the ability to deftly retract your kick and prevent these counters appeal to you in the least? Now, think about 'skill.' Within Muay Thai, we can identify skilled fighters by how technically sound their strikes are, say. The same is true of fighters within TKD. But when we get the best MTer and the best TKDer together, we think that when the TKDer lands a lot of techniques but eventually gets KO'd that MT itself is better. Contrary, it means that MT is vulnerable to quick strikes from eccentric angles and that the particular TKDer needed a stronger jaw. What does this say of "skill?"
Quote: The only waste I see is the wasting away of skills he has already invested time, effort and money in, if he settles for what he has rather than seeking a higher level.
Train hard, fight easy. Train easy and the fight will be hard. Panta had a good line in his sig. which put it another way, something like "Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield."
I already claimed that he wouldn't lose what he's already gained, and my methods, while off-beat, are far from training easy.
Quote: 3) He cannot maintain peak skill in a (IMHO) superior method from practising inside and amoungst students of another art. If he feels he has mastered something but fails to continually disect and examine the technique then his understanding and execution of the technique will warp over time. Change is inevitable but it is up to ones own will power to steer the changes in a beneficial direction.
This is precisely why I brought up Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee's Wing Chun degraded over time, but his Jun Fan Gung Fu developed exceptionally well by all accounts. In the case of Lakan, yes perhaps he won't be fantastic at Kombatan or Shotokan. But his Lakan Sampu Do will grow by leaps and bounds.
Quote: 4) What was proved in the pudding was that his abilities were adequate for success in sparring against the top students in the school. I wonder how he does against the top students in his old Kombatan school?...Yes, I would like to know Lakan_Sampu mate! :)
What it proves to me is that Shotokan sparring in that school placed emphasis in areas where a different kind of fighter could exploit weaknesses. When the Shotokaners learn to cope with Lakan's methods, Lakan himself will need to expand as a fighter in ways that, truthfully, cannot be taught by sensei of any school or coaches of any sport. This is why we advocate crosstraining, simplicity of technique and constant testing through combat.>
Post: lakan_sampu:
Wow, didn't expect my post would be that interesting...:-)
At this moment, I do not have the resources to find and study at "better" schools in my province. As far as I know, there aren't any FMA (my Kombatan school is in Manila, 3-4 hours away from my hometown) ones here, only 2 Karate (shotokan and shurin) and 1 TKD schools. The reason why I got back to Shotokan after 4 years was I want to still train in any art, and this school was the most familiar one for me, as I cannot afford any schools in my area too. The sad thing here is that this Shotokan school still trains for tournaments, ergo: too much time is used in perfecting Kata and less in sparring(which is also point system). The shodan holders whom I train currently are not used that much (IMO) in sparring. e.g. they are surprised with my counter-punching in kumite, which in Kombatan standards, are not good. No fight or combat simulations too. You get the idea...
One sparring session, I was so excited that instead of blocking it, I countered a ridgehand (is that haito?) with a punch to the bicep(tnx to my footwork). My sempai said his bicep ached for about 2 days. I was able to pull something from my Kombatan in that shotokan kumite, and I think they won't pull off any ridgehands against me anymore...8-)
Quote: Indeed, if he doesn't continue to practice his old skills, he will eventually lose them. But here's where the brilliance of Bruce Lee can shine: once you have mastered the basics of the art - for Sampu, footwork - you can apply them at any time during any other style's training. So, maybe the bulk of his classes at the Shotokan dojo will be the mechanics of Shotokan striking, but when he gets to sparring, he includes the Kombatan footwork seamlessly. Thus, he will never lose that footwork.
It worked for me the other way around too, 3 years ago. My Kombatan instructors told me that I was easy to coach with my kickings, power and muscle memory in forms (anyo). Those two I picked up from Shotoka in highschool. Just the same, I'll be careful of losing fundamental FMA skills/concepts. Some blackbelts were asking me if I could give them some arnis lessons. I agreed, only it hasn't happened yet. They're also almost clueless of groundwork or takedown defense(given their orientation), so I think I'll share some also in the future.
Quote: What was proved in the pudding was that his abilities were adequate for success in sparring against the top students in the school. I wonder how he does against the top students in his old Kombatan school?...
So far, I've noticed that one of my basic disadvantages from them is my speed because I've gotten heavier. Also, is the orientation relative to the rules of kumite. But my size (I'm taller than most of them) and footwork gives me the edge at most times. For example, I don't defend against a jodan mawashi geri (fortunately telegraphed) by a sliding sidestep away and a parry. What I do is that I raise my forearm near my head, at the target of the kick, with a diagonal sidestep towards my opponent. They think its odd, but I only shrug my shoulders.
At the same time, I think its not fair to compare them with my Kombatan classmates (top students? of course I usually lose against them) because of the focus of the training, but still...
Quote: I already claimed that he wouldn't lose what he's already gained, and my methods, while off-beat, are far from training easy.
At the moment, I'm re-orienting myself to strike and block harder, as shotokan is such a style. I'll try not to lose my fluidity.
zefff, are you english?:-)
salamat guys!>
Post: zefff:
Yes I am English, my blood is half Jamaican and half Irish. Why do you ask?>
Post: Triple T:
Ah yes, the hardness of Shotokan blended with the fluid motion of FMAs...they might start calling you tsunami or something. :lol:>
| < Prev | Next > |
|---|