8 mo. long Wing Chun fighter wins Tournament
Original Poster: wuming
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 19-10-2005, 16:48
Orginal Post: wuming: My friend was telling me the other day that his sifu was telling him about another student in their Wing Chun lineage who went to a tournament sponsored by Coca Cola. According to my friend (whom would have no reason at all to lie to me), this guy had only been practicing Wing Chun for eight months and he won the entire tournament. He had no other training than his eight months worth of wing chun training and was beating "black belts" in Karate. My friend said that this guy basically would just side step and chain punch every time. In fact, the referee suggested that he use a different technique; this makes no sense to me, why would you change something if it works? The funniest thing about it all was that while he was warming up before the fights, he was practicing one of his forms and everyone was pointing and laughing at him. Then after the other fighters saw that what he was doing was working, they began immitating him, but to no avail.....
I am not trying to start a flame war. Take from this what you will. I just thought some of you Wing Chun guys or other Chinese arts afficionados might find this interesting.
Post: zefff:
let me guess....he was in the under 9 years old category. :D>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
Well, we saw how effective something like a chain punch can be when Vitor beat Wanderlei back in the day.>
Post: Oh:
Wing Chun sum crazy shit, in a real fight wing chun kicks ass>
Post: Blade:
well he must of been a very dedicated student to beat other blackbelts after 8 months of training...>
Post: 8LimbsScientist:
[quote=wuming In fact, the referee suggested that he use a different technique; this makes no sense to me, why would you change something if it works?[/quote
I don't know about this karate tournament (we don't even know what style) but in ITF TKD only the first three punches in a punch combination are scored. If you want to continue scoring with punches you have to mix in a kick. You will also be verbally warned if you are constantly just punching. They do this to keep the fights from dissolving into boxing matches and to preserve the artistic side of the art. IF this story is true that might be why?
Even if it is true it shows that the caliber of the blackbelts wasn't that high in this tournament. This has nothing to do with insulting Wing Chun, but chainpunching is not the supreme ultimate technique that has no defense. You'd think after the third blackbelt got beat with the SAME single technique the rest of them would have tried something new, lol.>
Post: Gong||Jau:
It's possible that they weren't prepared for the possibility that after they lunged in and missed, someone would be in that close to them and strike that rapidly, since I highly doubt that they'd ever encountered a similar technique at their schools. However, that's not to say that Wing Chun is superior to whatever style of karate may be in question, since neither of those styles (IMO) functions optimally in that setting.>
Post: 8LimbsScientist:
Gong Jau
I agree for the most part, but what I'm saying is...the competitors had the luxury of watching their fellow black belts get owned with that same exact strategy and technique. The matches don't happen in a private room. So I'm just saying, what kind of blackbelts wouldn't be able to defend against a technique they KNOW is coming?
If it was the karate kid crane kick, then yes, I agree because if do right, no can defense, but if we're talking just chain punching here I doubt that none of them could find an effective counter.>
Post: Gong||Jau:
I'd guess that the best counter would be to stay out of the range of chain punches, since in a point tournament even light taps can earn you points, and it's pretty hard not to get hit at all by that many strikes that fast. It would probably be best to maintain your distance and try to score points with kicks, or force him to attack you. What I see as the problem is that it's hard to stop that type of punch from making contact with you, so even though it might not be able to hurt you at all they'd score points off of you left and right.>
Post: wuming:
First off, this guy was not in the nine year old category. I didn't think to ask the guy's age but my friend did mention he had a beard.
Again, I was not trying to say that Wing Chun is superior or Karate is inferior. I was only providing an observation; I never made any inference at all about the superiority of any art. Like with other types of "evidence" like this, I still stand firm that you can not infer that any art is better.
Quote: I don't know about this karate tournament but in ITF TKD only the first three punches in a punch combination are scored. If you want to continue scoring with punches you have to mix in a kick. You will also be verbally warned if you are constantly just punching. They do this to keep the fights from dissolving into boxing matches and to preserve the artistic side of the art. IF this story is true that might be why?
Good point, 8 limbs. My friend never mentioned the rules to me, so I could not answer that question. He did say thought that this guy continued to use the technique, so I am assuming if he was "warned" but still continued to use the technique and still won the tournament, it must not have been illegal.
Quote: Even if it is true it shows that the caliber of the blackbelts wasn't that high in this tournament. This has nothing to do with insulting Wing Chun, but chainpunching is not the supreme ultimate technique that has no defense. You'd think after the third blackbelt got beat with the SAME single technique the rest of them would have tried something new, lol.
This is my point exactly. When someone is throwing chain punches my sifu refers to it as throwing dust. If these black belts had any footwork training, they would know a simple pivot or sidestep would avoid the attack easily. My friend said that these opponents had no guard and no defense whatsoever. He said they were like those guys from the XMA show who just threw their legs out into the air and charge. Again all of his other opponents should have picked up on his technique by the end of the tournament and been ready for it. Obviously they were not very good fighters (or not very observant at the least). I guess the real question is what makes a real black belt anymore these days. If someone with eight months of training can defeat numerous black belts in a tournament, something just seems a little odd. It would be like the newest student at your school with no experience in any other martial arts "owning" the senior students. All I am saying is something seems amiss...>
Post: p-man:
To me it's like this.
Martial Arts is one of those things,that you can never fully understand.To understand it all,you would have to know it all.There are so many styles and techniques.Forms and secrets.It pretty much depends on the person studying the art.Martial Arts are an extended tool of your soul.How you understand and appreciate it,is going to be the way you bring it across on the physical level.With some Arts I guess experience does play a really big role.You perfect a certain technique that you could pull off in your sleep.But I do believe that if one person has been studying a certain art for a longer period of time,they can get their asses kicked by a "beginner".They just missused the tool that they have been studying.I mean you can pick up a screwdriver,knowing exactly what to do with it,and you can still cut yourself,you can still screw the nail in crooked!!!
I believe that there is a certain art for everyone out there,something that when you practice it,it just feels like it's supposed to be a part of you.
Maybe Karate was not for these guys and Wing-Chung was for the other guy.But this is where the experience plays a factor.Any fighter in any tournament is going to see who he is up against.So if there is one guy drowning the competition with chain punches,there should have been another guy,amongst all these black-belts,who should have picked up on this.Studying your opponent is a pretty big factor.But using your tools the right way is the other,even if you think you know your opponent 100%,you could still make a mistake.You don't expect yourself to make one,but if your ass is knocked out on the floor you did.You'll be asking yourself,"How the hell could I loose,I studied my opponent"?
Maybe you did,and maybe you had all the experience,but you did not use your tools the right way.>
Post: nbotary:
My sifu told us of a similar story where someone had just practiced the opposite hand/opposite foot, straight kick/punch combination and was so proficient at it, he was mopping the floor with people at a tournament he fought in. If a fighter does the same technique over and over, in the same order, then he's telegraphing what his intent is and will be an easy opponent to overcome. If the other fighters weren't learning from this then they deserved to get their ass kicked.
I guess it all boils down to the basics and fundamentals. If you're not proficient at that, then no amount of flowery or acrobatic shit will make you a good fighter - it just means you'll look pretty when you get your ass kicked!!>
Post: xcal:
haha, that's very funny:-) HOWEVER, would you stop buying music cd's after listening to me sing? You DO NOT want to hear me sing ;-)
I firmly believe in what I once read "blame the artist, and not the art".
that being said, I think that the points system has brought many modern karate styles down to a mere game of tag. This should actually have made it easier for a karate-man to score points by kicking the puncher(whatever his style).
take olympic boxing style as another example: South Africa recently hosted the world military boxing tournament which followed the olympic rules. I watched it on TV and got XTREMLY bored by the tap-tap and run system that seems to have developed....although it was great of SABC (local tv broadcaster) to cover the event.
regards
Xcal>
Post: wuming:
I wasn't trying to say that Wing Chun is superior or anything. I also believe that it is the fighter not the art. I was just relaying a story I heard that I found kind of interesting. But you have to admit though, that there are some cases where a person's training can be flawed. Have you ever seen a karate guy with good root? There are some things that some arts do train better than others: like wing chun training to guard the center and keep in close, and so on (I am sure you can think of others). I wasn't trying to show that karate was inferior. If you think about it, there has to be some reason why this 8 mo. long practitioner was beating guys w/ black belts. It just sounded a bit odd to me that is all.>
Post: Muay_Thai_MGM:
My teacher once told me, "Don't be a jack of all trades, but a master of none". This Wing Chun guy (if the story is accurate), found something that worked for him and because it worked, used it to win.
After my teacher gave me the "jack of trades" line he went on to explain how when he was wrestling at the University of Minnesota there was a guy from Ohio State who dominated guys. He used a single leg takedown that everyone of is opponents knew was coming, it was his bread and butter move. Because he was so proficient at it, nobody could stop it. He had "mastered" that particular technique.
I'm not saying this to discredit the notion of being well-rounded. You have to be in MA. It is nice to have something that you can use in just about any situation, that you have complete confidence in.>
Post: buicken:
Edit by setsu nin to>
Post: wuming:
Ummm bro, you should check a new thread where some new member gave the break down on who this man was and what the tournament was. All the info he gave was congruent w/ what my friend told me. And hell you might even be able to google it and find something. Prepare to eat your words. lol>
Post: MiDn1GhT:
this is an advertisement for a lineage ,thats what it sound like.
and a very bad one chain punching the way to victory yiiiihhhhiaaaaa
give me a break?
"At one point the Judge did ask him if he could use some technique other than a chain punch"
only doing 1 technique and especially chain puncing shows that you are a rookie ,you have no flexibility as a fighter nor do you understand wc principles and philosophy.
i am a student of sifu nectarios eftymiou twc and he only chain punches people when there on the ground and hes on top or when he has blind side and hes trapped you.
chain punching is a finishing move
as a person who loves and practises wing chun almost daily this does shows me how many teacher consider wc to be as an external style and that reflects on how the people spar and behave
his reply to the judge was :"with all due respect sir, they should try blocking my punches", at which time the judge smiled and let them match proceed."
this is arrogant not confident and as all that study the internal parts of wing chun know
"When fear is removed, the arrogance of uncertainty is dispelled.
Therere, it is no longer necessary to prove yourself in any form of combat.
By learning how to fight, you learn how not to fight"
i dont want to offened anyone but this is a post that does not glorify wc but actually does the opposite>
Post: Maelut:
All due respect, Midnight, but I think you may be misinterpreting some things.
""only doing 1 technique and especially chain puncing shows that you are a rookie ,you have no flexibility as a fighter nor do you understand wc principles and philosophy. ""
It seems that only doing a single technique would exemplify the ideal of efficiency, which is central to the practice of Ving Tsun. Why should I have played unnecessary techniques when the simple, nonflashy, ones were working?
""chain punching is a finishing move ""
I would strongly recommend you talking to your sifu, and asking him about this question. Chain punch is much more than a finishing move; it dominates the centerline in an extremely dynamic and sophisticated way. The punch is much more than a punch. I'm sure you've experienced this in chi sao, where punches do more than simply hit.
I fully agree with the last part of your article. Now that I've continued to train, I would not choose to go to another tournament. As was mentioned, my Kung Fu was very young at that point, and I was curious to see where it lay in relation to other styles. Our lineage does not promote tournaments, in fact no students compete, since tournaments and sparring are not parts of the Ving Tsun system. This was an unusual case, and one which I did on my own initiative.>
Post: zefff:
If you dont do any sparring, what do you do instead to test yourself?>
Post: Maelut:
I'm not sure why I'd need to have a way of "testing" myself. I know that my Kung Fu will always grow, as long as I continue to train hard. The personal sensitivity developed during training can direct your attention to specific areas of your training. And my Sifu, Sigung and Sitaigung will direct my training with details and suggestions that are rooted in their training. Even Chi Sao, which some people have equated with sparring, isn't a competition.
"In Chi Sao, there is only you."
As for "real world applicability", I've seen the Kung Fu work in real life situations. I trust that it'll be there when it's needed, so I don't feel that I need to test it in the meantime.>
Post: zefff:
okay Maelut, let me address what you are saying in your reply.
Quote: I'm not sure why I'd need to have a way of "testing" myself.
You need to test because 'testing' is the basis of science. You are learning a system which is an idea in one persons head being verbally, visually and tactilely transmitted into your own head. Testing the idea and theory in actual bodily movements to form a conclusion is the only way your body can make sense of the idea.
What I mean is you are presented with a situation which stimulates you to act. Your system dictates that you move in a certain manner. Even performing that move infront of a mirror is a test, all be it a very low resistance one.
Anyway I dont want to go on for ages but we all test ourselves and each other each and every day in regular social situations. Its pretty basic. If you still dissagree then just say so and I will come back on this topic.
Quote: I know that my Kung Fu will always grow, as long as I continue to train hard.
I really am not meaning to pick apart your every word but this isnt true IMHO because you can trainb as hard as you want and you still wont get anywhere far if you never apply your mind to ANY task and examine yourself and how you respond, behave, think and feel.
Quote: The personal sensitivity developed during training can direct your attention to specific areas of your training.
You do not exist outside of or set apart from anything else in the world. The danger is that with a mind which is so involved with itself you may find that it only sends its attention to where it wants and not to places it finds uncomfortable or (especially) can not perceive.
Quote: And my Sifu, Sigung and Sitaigung will direct my training with details and suggestions that are rooted in their training.
Yes but why wait for them to feed you with 2nd hand info? You are free to do what you want! Sparring is like demanding or trying to steal techniques from people 1st hand. You ask them physical questions and they are forced to give you answers. Your body learns immediately with the brain following behind, analysing the data and partitioning it into something you can use at another time. This must surely be quicker than learning by inputting knowledge into the brain and having it trickle down into the limbs? The brain wants to examine and be scientific. The brain will slow you down, this cannot be the WC way if you consider efficiency as primary!
Quote: As for "real world applicability", I've seen the Kung Fu work in real life situations. I trust that it'll be there when it's needed, so I don't feel that I need to test it in the meantime.
IMHO you need to KNOW not trust, KNOW that it is there! The way of success is to know your capabilities. If you know what you are capable of then you know when you can and cannot strike, when you can and cannot move, when you can and cannot win! If you dont know your own capabilities you will always have fear because of this gap in your knowledge. You will also never be able to guage the capabilities of others.
I could go on for ages about this and I probably am not making much sense as Ive had a few bevvy's but IMHO knowledge of our own capabilities is the root of success.>
Post: MiDn1GhT:
It seems that only doing a single technique would exemplify the ideal of efficiency. ->this is inflexibility
1.if you only chain punch couldnt someone side step lap sao -medium round kick ?
2.couldnt someone do a full back step-t stance -pak sao -punch...
coudnt the karateka do a front kick as you came in a blaze of rolling punch? ....?
simplicity is not inflexibility
something many wc wt or vt or whatever practisioners do wrong most time is balance when chain punching when they re trying to chain punch and go fowand you can easily go off balance .
.....i know because i did it and my sifu kick my ass ages ago when i was a white belt
"it dominates the centerline in an extremely dynamic and sophisticated way"
i agree but as bruce lee said "be like water"
you are limiting yourself as a fighter by thinking that everything is linear .
if you go up against a person with good footwork from any style with your attitude and its applications then you will only get your ass kicked hes gonna go left and right and take advantage of your power ive done many times to new guys who come up and think that by being small they gonna win even if im senior to them ......they forget that wing chun is a womans art =)
thats why actually chain punching IS a fininsh move
bacause if you treat it so you are both flexible and powerful
chi sao is an exercise you learn from its not fighting rember that chi sao is not competiotion its skill development
full contact give it a go then uyou will see where im coming from
and practise your forms :) they become a part of you in ways you can only see when you are in danger like full contact or street>
Post: WushuPadawan001:
MiDn1GhT, zefff, and Maelut:
You three seem to be locked in one of Gong Fu?s many strengths and frustrations; the emphasis of study. Reading your posts I would judge that none of you are wrong or ill-informed. Rather I see reflection of the teachings you have received.
Maelut says he does not entirely believe in the value of testing oneself. He observes his growth in the martial arts through the advancement of his training instead of the result of a sparring match. In this way his focus appears to be on the practice of form and technique before application.
MiDn1GhT. From you?re point of view chain-punching is a finishing move. Furthermore you state that a person with good footwork would easily beat someone like Maelut who heavily relied on the repetition on basic techniques like chain-punching. This leads me to believe that you have an emphasis on sparring in your training.
Of the three I would say that zefff is the most aware of the mental aspects of the martial arts. For him it is necessary to train the mind to advance in the martial arts.
Training is a funny thing as there are many ways to go about it. One person may find validity in a kind of practice while another sees only fault (an example of this from personal experience is that I train Contemporary Wushu for physical conditioning to enhance my Gong Fu and Taiji. Yet there are those who I practice with that see little value in Wushu; believing that my time would be better spent conditioning with Gong Fu). Maelut may have an emphasis on form and technique, MiDn1GhT on application, and zefff with the intellectual. Despite what aspect the individual stresses, it is unlikely that any facet is completely absent in his/her training.
If this is unclear (or I have misjudged MiDn1GhT, zefff, or Maelut) I?ll do my best to post a reply.>
Post: opariser1001:
you don't spar? ... :roll:>
Post: MiDn1GhT:
well the mental aspect will come to you after all that sparring believe me !
it actually pushes you to find that mental edge thats whats good about it
your sifu can go on and on about how good it is to do the 3 high round hook kicks and then go for the choke that never fail but if he cant prove it in a sparring form its useless
sparring and technical application makes you grow and think.
they are questions that you need to ansewr thats why you either grow or you get beaten really badly
believe me sparring leads to many realizations and self judgment that actually brings you an inner balance and confidence much more stronger than anything taught to you
why? because you experienced it it is now a part of you .........not some theory it is you
no technical application to a martial art is like doing yoga...........>
Post: Maelut:
Well, it seems we all have very different views on how to train. I'm going to head off now and play some Siu Nim Tao, since that's what I think will benefit me the most. Good training, all. See you in a few years.
"Talk doesn't cook rice.">
Post: opariser1001:
it seems that your own quote, if you think about it applies to you more than it applies to us:
"Talk doesn't cook rice"
think about it.
god just hearing the way you talk on the forum makes me picture you as one of those dorks from the early UFC's that thought their style was so awesome but then got frickin tooled. dude, if you don't spar, you might as well not even be training>
Post: MiDn1GhT:
dont become a martial arts robot
i recall my karate days and who they pretty much sucked man the teacher there was not intrested in anything than to press it into our hearts and minds that his system was the best and if you didnt agree with it well too bad ........he would ridicule you it happened to me and it sucked believe me
as i left the dojo bitter only thing i could see was a bunch of guys saying yeehha cordinated like robots in perfect form in there eyes there was nothing but that power that fake power when you get while yelling there was nothing there to learn ,to challenge and to give back to the art they only wanted to get things from the teacher.The reason i left was because my sensei told my mother that i wasnt karate material.
i was freaking ten but i made alot of questions that my sensei apparently didnt like to ansewr.
you never forget those feelings inside
but it all turn out for the best
ask yourself what are the wing chun principle learn them by heart and learn to apply them
ask your teacher about everything and intergrated to who you are and how you can fight as a way to bring out you believe not in forms and practise but yourself
concentrate on your inner state and your goals and they will quicly become a part of you in ways that you dont react to your opponet rather than completly dominating him
its hard to describe this on the internet in a forum
dont become a robot become yourself the techniques there you can interpret them as you wish and through sparring you will do so with your sifus help
check out this link and take everything from it weather its linearge or not
just review it
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/g/1477/wing-chun-for-special-warfare.html
i hope you understand more after you read this i do everytime i read it>
Post: bamboo:
Quote: dont become a martial arts robot
Quote: check out this link and take everything from it weather its linearge or not
Ummm. so which is it? Think for yourself or go to the website and swallow the entire thing?
Sounds to me like you had a bad experience as a child and now colour everything thats not what you do as wrong.
Frankly, I have a hard time taking a website seriously when the first thing I see are VISA and Mastercard accepted signs.
-bamboo>
Post: MiDn1GhT:
i just gave an example of how you should take everything you know and question it try it out and then try to figure out what is useful to you..... i just gave him some more info on wing chun strategy to follow it or not is his choice.
i just pointed out not to take everything as the law that cannot be broken something alot of ma have and when they become teachers defines them and cannot break away from it.
basicly to focus on himself not the style and to question the people that teach him
sorry if it was not perceived correctly i hope this clearifys it.
sorry for the bad english>
Post: bamboo:
Midnight,
Don't worry about the english, its the second and third language for many people here so much respect just for making the attempt to communicate in the language.
I was not flaming you, I just saw saw some irony in the robot statement then the "listen to everything on this site" statement.
I agree with you entirely, think for yourself, but at the same time, pay attention to those that have tyravelled the path before you, you can learn from thier accomplishments and mistakes.
-bamboo>
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