Can any1 explain CHI to me!?
Original Poster: TonyTooRaw
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 12-11-2005, 02:34
Orginal Post: TonyTooRaw: Many people always talk about chi and i wanted to kno what u guys think about it, is it real?
Post: Tease T Tickle:
'chi' as its own belief structure is total garbage. Chi as an idea that can be molded into other thought constructs, however, is not only believable but rather mundane. For instance, one definition for chi is "the energy by which the mind controls the body." Which really just makes chi neurological bioelectricity. That crap you heard about charging up chi, throwing chi balls, turning Super Sayan and whatnot are all right up there with stories about witches turning people into newts. The truth about chi is that - somehow - training as if its real has some decent payoffs but nothing beyond what you can do with a good workout plan.>
Post: mlr45gunnr:
Chi or ki as best i can recollect is more like guts - inner strength - kia is like a way of focusing inner strength into a technique - alot like grunting to lift but faster. As far as mystical Chi i agree with Tease. When you are told the- save you Chi don't have sex - EVER umm ok so mutch for chi.>
Post: zefff:
So how come accupuncture works?>
Post: TonyTooRaw:
yea im not talkin bout shootin fireballs n dragonball z shit just like the one that they talk bout in real life, so its kinda like a belief to trick u to work out harder n try harder? or do they really believe it works?>
Post: Bloodybirds:
I respectfully disagree with Tease to an extent. Tony, my suggestion is to buy a chi book written by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming on the scientific background for it. Dr. Yang, besides being a well know martial artist, is also has a PhD in physics and a masters in Engineering from Purdue. Whenever he described it to us, he put it in the context of Ohm's law and, like Tease mentioned, a bioelectric manifestation. I can only tell you that when I was in Hong Kong training under my Ying jow master's master (Ng Wei) I did feel things when he struck me (I know I am opening myself up here...laughing) but it felt like a shock wave and warm as in iron palm.
The skepticism comes from the western belief that the mind and body are separate. I suppose chi, ki, or any other item like that would need to be scientifically tested and some valid research has been done, though empirically.
In the end, Tony, I think some things in the martial arts, as in life, begin with faith. It is very hard to believe in something not seen. But, I have felt enough from all three of my masters to believe there is something there more than mere power, strength, and sinew.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
I apologize for some bad English in what I just wrote but, after almost 2 years going for my MBA, I am almost all written out. Please do not validate to APA standards, for those in school now or have been recently....laughing. I have no citations.>
Post: Twitch:
It's a western belief that the mind and body are separate? No way man, the Romans used "chi" too, don't believe me? Look up "Spiritus," you'll see.
I'll give you this though, I don't think the east had anything like the inquisition. For all we know, western society could have had many martial arts that are for all intents and purposes "lost" for fear that they could be used to fight back against the Church.>
Post: TonyTooRaw:
ya idk what to believe, if i felt it too i would believe it but i dont kno but the mind is definately more powerful then alot of ppl think, most normal people think that fighting is just bout brute strength, but anyways back to chi....what arts study chi?>
Post: Michael M.:
I always thought Chi was just adrenaline.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Very interesting cultural comment from Twitch. Thanks Twitch....now I want to go and research that comment!!! I have always wondered why the martial arts grew so expoentially in Asia but failed to take hold in Europe, other than of course superior sword fighting. Twitch....one question initially, why then did Savate take hold in France while the rest of Europe did not create their own hand to hand methodologies?
As I said in earlier comments, I believe chi is a bioelectric response that occurs when one is relaxed with an empty mind. However, it is distinguished from fa jing, basically the method of using great waist and hip action to express power through the hands or feet. Dr. Yang has an interesting perspective because of his educational and martial arts background. I think chi manifestation is real but not in the esoteric way that quasi-mystics purport it to be. It is essentially to me the expression of one's inner energy forces being expressed outward. I have seen my Shaolin master do some things like ramming 75 pounds of weight on the bar into his balls, while grinning, or having a "rambo" knife stabbed in his stomach and the blade breaking (knew that was real because I was the one at the demo that did it to him) but is that just massive power or something else? As far as arts that really study chi, the Shaolin animal arts, and the internal arts (taiji, hsing-i, and ba gua) all emphasize either the hard gung or soft nei gung (all qi-gong) of chi to supplement their strikes and postures. Difference lies in the internal v. external nature of the defense.>
Post: CraigS159:
hi,
In my view, chi is the inner strength of a person, a bit like the spirit. It wont allow you to shoot fire balls, turn invisiable and shoot magic bullets out from your fingers but it will improve your strength (mentally, which will actually contribute to your physical strength).
In my knowledge of ninjutsu, it is said that chi is what makes up the universe and everything that exists within it. Increasing your chi can be achieved by meditating and achieving inner peace and a positive attitude that makes life more enjoyable.
Chi is about using tranquill motion, not force, to achieve a mass amount of power.>
Post: TonyTooRaw:
interesting, thank u guys......cany anyone improve their chi? or do u have to be taught by a certain person or study that art? or can any person just sit down n meditate?>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Tony, like anything else in the martial arts study, it is all a journey of growth and self discovery. I do say, at least in my experience, that it is necessary to have a guide to take you through it who has been there before. I remember the first time I was taught rooting and the first time it worked in a standing meditation I felt a funny sensation like my feet were glued to the floor and sunken in. It was a weird sensation. As far as I know, whether you call it chi, ki, or another acronym, most traditional Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Indonesian, or Filipino arts all teach it. Find someone who is a bona fide master of qi-gong or some other form and follow his/her guidance.>
Post: Hengest:
Quote: I have always wondered why the martial arts grew so expoentially in Asia but failed to take hold in Europe, other than of course superior sword fighting. Twitch....one question initially, why then did Savate take hold in France while the rest of Europe did not create their own hand to hand methodologies?
The rest of Europe did create their own hand-to-hand methodologies. The English have boxing and catch, the Dutch worstel-konst, the Germans ringen, the Austrians ranggeln, the Swiss schwingen, the Basques zipota. Look anywhere in Europe and you'll find indigenous fighting systems. With the invention of firearms, both the East and West saw hand-to-hand combatives take a back seat. The difference stems from the opinions over the role of HTH at that point. The West preserved their styles in the form of sport, often very localised, used simply for entertainment. The East, however, saw their styles as methods of spiritual improvement and their study was largely encouraged with this aim in mind.
I don't think religion had much of a part to play. La verdadera destreza, the Spanish school of rapier, is a good case in point. The entire system was wrapped up in Judeo-Christian mythology, particularly with regards to its incredibly complex system of footwork, which relied heavily on the qabbalistic idea of sacred geometry.>
Post: angryrocker4:
I dont know if this will add anything to the discussion, but here goes.
Im sure all of you have heard of the Gaia belief. Basically that everything has spirit, and things of animation have more. In this way everything is tied together, and one can draw on the spirit of the things around him. Theres more to it than just that though.
This is what I think chi is, cause lets face it, its been around so long there has to be some merit to it. I believe chi or kia is the harnessing and focusing of this internal spirit that we all have and share. Thus, we have people with extraordinary talents, such as a sixth sense type of thing. And also the ability to draw some spirit from other things/people to empower the self. I think this spirit is the source of some of the "paranormal" things that are unexplainable, and the source of many other mysteries. If I hadnt typed so much today in the bush forum Id write more, but Im tired now.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Hengest, thank you very much for a very informative answer. I found particularly interesting your comments on the Kabbala and footwork. I guess I need to go back to my kabbalistic studies from my youth.....missed that!!!
I have always found it interesting to take a period in time from the past and compare developments in disparate parts of the world at the time. It is fascinating, both from an economic and martial aspect, how different cultures took the same problem (s) and developed different solutions based upon cultural norms and practices along with surroundings/environment. Thank you Hengest....time to read up on some of what you mentioned.>
Post: Hengest:
[quote=Bloodybirds Thank you Hengest....time to read up on some of what you mentioned.[/quote
You're welcome mate. It's difficult to find reliable information on Western martial arts on the Net, but one excellent source is the Journal of Western Martial Arts ( http://ejmas.com/jwma/ ) and its subsiduary publication, the Journal of Manly Arts ( http://ejmas.com/jmanly/ ). Both of these are mines of information. Incidentally, if you look in the 2001 archive of the JWMA, you'll find an excellent article on la verdadera destreza by today's foremost practitioner.>
Post: CraigS159:
Anyone can learn to meditate on their own, if you know how. Obviously it helps to ask a martial art teacher for guidence.>
Post: bamboo:
Better yet,
ask a meditation teacher.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Thanks Hengest....in a short time I will be freed up to read for enjoyment again!!! I will look into the sites you mentioned.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
Bloodybirds: I'm not sure we're really in disagreement. I'm just telling you right now that if Dr. blah blah blah tells you he can somehow transmit his bioelectricity, it will not operate in the manners consistent with historical/mythical accounts of Chi use.
Zefff: Accupuncture meridian points are almost always in junction with important neural pathways, so when that needle (or touch in the case of accupressure) stimulates these nerve bundles, the system changes operations. For instance, my own doctor used accupuncture in lieu of anaesthetics furing reconstructive knee surgery. The theory is that the needles shut off key sensory nerves that cut off the transmission of pain signals to the brain.
Tony: If you want to Dragonball Z type stuff, you can't. I'm sorry. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't look into chi for training methods. Hope I've helped.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Tease, sorta like evolution vs. creationism? Laughing. I believe Dr. Yang's assertions are for internal manifestations and not transferral to others during striking. I will have to re-read to confirm his point. Also, does this mean then that such things as iron palm, iron skirt, etc are really just totally physical and does not possess some amount of chi as it were? Can we say then that chi might really be proper breathing from the tan tien and expressed through the technique? I love it when you make me think....but it hurts!!!!!>
Post: samurai6string:
okay, I'll try to add something constructive here. :) Even though this is the chineese martial forum, you might want to look into Aikido. just a thought. And also slightly on the subject, what do you guys think of Kiaijutsu? Is there a Chineese equivalent? Oh and I think I've muddied this up so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember something about turning chi into jing <sp?> is that sort of like mechanical force or something?>
Post: Bloodybirds:
I do not know Kiaijitsu....sorry but aikido is very close to a combo of suia chiao and chin na. As far as fa jing, it is using your waist bowing your chest and expressing power out with all connected to the hands either from the foot to the waist to the shoulders to the hands in northern kung fu or from the waist up in southern. Southern white crane and Chen style tai ji along with Hsing i and Ba Qua all have great expressions of jing. Also, jing is very effective as a waist action for locks grabbing in or down. A brief explanation. Read one of Dr. Yang's books on jing or Southern white crane. Hope that helps.>
Post: samurai6string:
I think I mentioned to you before that I have 2 of Dr. Yang's Chin na books, they are great, I will deff. check out one on either jing or white crane.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=Bloodybirds I believe Dr. Yang's assertions are for internal manifestations and not transferral to others during striking. I will have to re-read to confirm his point.[/quote
I was referring more to claims of throwing chi balls, using chi to fly, and any other myth of supernatural powers like that. Iron palm, accupuncture, etc. aren't really all that strange, it just doesn't fit into Western conception, hence the resistance to it.
Quote: Also, does this mean then that such things as iron palm, iron skirt, etc are really just totally physical and does not possess some amount of chi as it were?
That assumes that chi is not physical.
Quote: Can we say then that chi might really be proper breathing from the tan tien and expressed through the technique? I love it when you make me think....but it hurts!!!!!
Breathing from the tan tien is really just there to help calm and clear your mind so you can concentrate on using your energies better. That is, chi breathing is really just an application of meditation and serves no purpose in generating or otherwise manifesting chi. If your mind worked properly (which is kind of misleading, don't worry too much about the word properly), you wouldn't need to breath from the tan tien to use chi.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Interesting points Tease....let me ponder why I am weak and weary and think about your comments. Especially the last one. Talk soon...good night.>
Post: zed:
if i was sick i would go to a doctor, if i want to learn about KF and chi (it is real no matter what the western world says and i am a westerner, i have seen and felt its effects) i go to a sifu who doesnt close his mind to the facts of the art as it meant to be practiced.....this may sound like an angry rant but to just throw away an art because you dont understand it is beyond me, you are just holding yourself back, or your "sifu" is. you will NEVER learn real MA in a book or dvd/ video.....all you will do is hurt yourself, or fool yourself into thinking your a great MAist. oh well i practice for me so take this as you see fit.>
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