counter for a sweep
Original Poster: xcal
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 17-08-2005, 09:59
Orginal Post: xcal: hello all,
I threw this question at the sensei(no reply yet), but just realized that the forum is not a discussion forum.
I'm entering my schools Kung-fu tournament at the end of this month (about 5 branches of the school are entering). The format is probably a single 3 minute round, with the winner progressing to the next bout. I would guess that I need to win 3 to 5 bouts to win my category (level in school AND weight defines category). One sure way of winning is to drop the opponent 3 times in the round. As a result, I expect to encounter many sweeps. i.e.
opponent crouches, sticks out a foot, spins body 180 degrees (my classmate is able to quickly follow that with another sweep in the opposite direction).
My problem is that I don't know how to safely counter this sweep. SURE, on the street, I would attempt to jump on the sweeping foot (assuming that I see it in time)...but I don't want to break my friends legs! Another alternate is a hop with a solid kick to the opponents well positioned face/head. AGAIN, I don't want to injure my friends...also, serious kicks to the face/head are probably illegal in the tournament.
I also don't want to duck and then counter attack(2 distinct operations).
What can you suggest?
thanks
Xcal
Post: nbotary:
Xcal - the odds of your opponent using a crouching sweep are not good. The odds of him using a standing leg sweep are what you need to worry about. Your best defense is to not be there when the sweep occurs. I realize that this is easier said than done, but if you understand body mechanics and how kicks are thrown, you'll have a better chance of seeing the setup for the sweep.
The biggest problem that you may encounter is having your opponent shoot through your front leg and sweep your back leg. The only counter you have is to jump, but even that is not going to save you if he 1.) clips your ankles while jumping; 2.) is throwing a combo - sweep, punch - and hits you in mid-air.
BAD IDEA! Under NO circumstance should you ever assume anything in a fight. This move is also dangerous to you should you land wrong and twist your ankle or knee. Not to mention someone who knows how to execute a foot sweep probably isn't going to let their leg hang out there long enough for you to be able to jump on any part of it!
Quote: ...on the street, I would attempt to jump on the sweeping foot (assuming that I see it in time)
If you're looking for a quick solution, the best answer I can give you is to make sure you are not off balance. This is where sweeps are dangerous. When I spar, I don't just throw a sweep just to throw it. I look for subtle hints that tell me my opponent may be off balance - his weight is shifted forwards/backwards, his stance is too wide, he's "bouncing" up and down, he has clumsy footwork, etc. These are all little signs that tell you your opponent is prime for a foot sweep. Your best defense is to keep an even balance, and raise the leg as high as you can when a sweep comes through. If you're setup right, you can counter by using a sidekick or front snap kick to the body.
If you're still unsure, you need to speak with your teacher and ask what they would do. Have them practice with you one-on-one and you'll understand the attacks, defenses and counters a lot better.>
Post: goongaloonga:
is this an all striking tournament ? if not and you can grapple just don't let him get the right distance, throw a light front kick and come in with a couple punches and take him down, something like that, get a good combination that works for you, and another option is when his back is turned when he's spinning around, jump on him and try to get a rear nake choke, but it's a risky move if he's a good grappler, and if he goes for a standing leg sweep as nbotary mentioned you can step back with the leg he goes for so you're almost in a front stance but by stepping back, that's if he goes for the outside leg, you can also turn into him in the way he's pushing you off balance and trip his other leg sasae(sp) style or you can body lock him and do a valley drop, or try to get to his back and suplex him or lifting slam him, and if he goes for the inside leg you can sweep him first if you're fast enough, or again step back and go for a front suplex or lifting slam from the front, but who am I kidding though, the grappling probably won't be that extensive>
Post: nbotary:
Goonga - he's not in the WWE!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:>
Post: goongaloonga:
lol I know, I kind of got going off thinking about different things I've done in class, sorry about that, an interesting side note, one time I tried the suplex from the front from an over and under, and the guy was taller than me so he just ended up falling on top of me lol, I prefer the lifting slam because I can never seem to get the turn on the suplexes (I'm not talking about the straight backones) one of my instructors has done a lot of greco roman, so that's why I do that stuff quit a bit>
Post: nbotary:
I used to wrestle in high school and some college... One of my favorite moves was to do the duck under, get behind and gain control and then go for a slam. My other favorite move was to do a fireman's carry into a side dump. When done properly, your opponent always ended up on his back with you on the top in the scoring/pinning position.>
Post: xcal:
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses:-)
We spar on a concrete floor. I'm DEFINITELY not going to slam anybody onto it!
Our style is mostly striking. The few locks that we have done during class will be mostly useless in the tournament due to the boxing gloves!
Nbot: yes, in practise sparring I have noticed more standing leg sweeps. I've received them, stepped in and punched my opponent out of the ring (3 of those=win), and have not lost my balance yet....BUT have bumps/bruises all the way up my shins:-(
The sensei has replied, saying pretty much the same. i.e. watch, time, step in with speed and attack!!!
regards
Xcal>
Post: nbotary:
Xcal - what style Kung Fu are you training? I'm assuming it's Kung Fu becuase you said you're entering your school's Kung Fu tournament and I've never heard of a TKD or Karate school holding a Kung Fu tournament.
Just remember, what works in the ring is not always applicable on the street. In the ring, you are confined by rules and you win by scoring points. Points don't mean shit in the real world. Make sure you differentiate between the two when you're training. In other words, don't use "street techniques" in the tournament, and "ring techniques" in a real fight. Make sure you're practicing both, keep them separate and know when to use what.>
Post: nbotary:
Xcal - I just read Sensei's response to your question and I have one disagreement with him:
He says that this move has never worked on him due to him keeping a low/heavy center. However, he didn't state whether or not all his weight was shifted onto the leg being swept, nor did he state in what context the move was tried on him - i.e. sparring, tournament, etc.
Quote: I have had this move attempted on me a couple of times. It never worked. The only thing I can assume is that there are points in a Kung Fu tournament-style fight where one is very light on their feet - in other words their center is very high instead of low - so a move like this can sweep their legs out from under them. As I have been in the habit of keeping a low/heavy center, the move has never worked (although I have received some nasty lower leg bruises). Try to keep heavy on the bottom, dont dance, keep aggressively moving forward on your opponent.
I respect his answer to you, but I think some of it was a little vague. Your best bet is to find out the rules of the tournament, talk with your Sifu and train accordingly.>
Post: MrPeabody:
[quote=nbotary Just remember, what works in the ring is not always applicable on the street. In the ring, you are confined by rules and you win by scoring points. Points don't mean shit in the real world. Make sure you differentiate between the two when you're training. In other words, don't use "street techniques" in the tournament, and "ring techniques" in a real fight. Make sure you're practicing both, keep them separate and know when to use what.[/quote
w3rd
It's all about strikes to the neck.
:P>
Post: bamboo:
Nbotary-
In respect to your disagreement with mr. St. Hilaire's advice.
SSH wrote:
Quote: As I have been in the habit of keeping a low/heavy center, the move has never worked (although I have received some nasty lower leg bruises). Try to keep heavy on the bottom, dont dance, keep aggressively moving forward on your opponent.
Nbotary wrote:
Quote: However, he didn't state whether or not all his weight was shifted onto the leg being swept, nor did he state in what context the move was tried on him
In lowering his center the weight distribution makes no difference as his center would be shifted with ease in less time than it takes to blink. Whether a tournament, sparring, whatever, lowering your center (not always the weight mind you) allows for a balance that is not at all easily upset.
However, in stating to aggressivly move forward, it is implied that his weight is forward.
Mr. Hilaire did qualify his statement by making reference to bruising. A solid kicker may not sweep you, but the damage is still soemthing to worry about.
Sound advice in my opinion.
Just my 2cents,
-bamboo>
Post: xcal:
HI all,
Nbot: yes, it's a kung fu tournament initiated by a kung fu school:-) We don't have a points system (aside from the 3 knockdown/knockout of ring rules). It's a pro-boxing style of scoring where 4 judges (the highly senior students) decide on the winner of the round.
bamboo: YES, I'm terribly worried about the bruises:-( It took a few days for them to disappear, and that was from 1 round of practice sparring....I cannot imagine taking many of those kicks throughout the tournament as easily as I did.
It seems to me that on the street, the general tactic would be to accept the kick, step in and "FINISH HIM".
wheras in a tournament the relevant strategy would be based more on staying in the tournament, so duck and counter in seperate moves.
What do you think?
oh, you can find my school at www.shaolin.co.za
regards
Xcal>
Post: xcal:
oh, nbot: thanks for the insight on when/where to look for a sweeping opportunity. I'll be sure to use them:-)>
Post: nbotary:
Bamboo - My comment was not one out of disrespect to SSH. I'm sure he is a fine MA and instructor. I'm not slamming what SSH said, I just don't understand how someone has never had a foot sweep work on them. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Even if he was kicked and bruised, if his foot or leg moved at all while it was planted, he was swept. He didn't necessarily have to fall down for it to have been effective. I used a front leg sweep one time that moved my training partners lead foot only 6 inches. But, it took my training partner off balance enough that he was unable stay centered and counter when I moved in. It just makes me wonder if any of these people actually knew how to execute a proper leg or foot sweep against SSH.>
Post: bamboo:
Nbotary- I didn't think you were being disrespectful at all, I was just commenting on your disagreement. I don't know the man at all, I'm sure he does not need me to defend his point of view.
I certainly do agree with you in regards to-
Quote: It just makes me wonder if any of these people actually knew how to execute a proper leg or foot sweep against SSH
I have been swept many times but I can honestly say that once I learned to drop my center, I have not been swept in the "typical" manner in a long time. It still happens, its just that I can count the number of times on one hand and still have change.
Xcal- Regarding the bruising. I wish I could say it gets better but you have to be realistic about your chosen activity. Combat based sports and the tournements you participate in bear some level of intensity that will cause you physical damage.
You may very well do well for yourself to look up and get some training in the muay thai technique of "checking" kicks. Works wonders when up against a hard kicker.
Quote: It seems to me that on the street, the general tactic would be to accept the kick, step in and "FINISH HIM".
wheras in a tournament the relevant strategy would be based more on staying in the tournament, so duck and counter in seperate moves.
Just hope your first match does not involve a man that operates under the "step in and finish him tactic", since if successful, he moves on and your ducking and countering all the way home. :wink:
One word of advice for tournements- Preperation
-bamboo>
Post: xcal:
Hi all,
quote
"Just hope your first match does not involve a man that operates under the "step in and finish him tactic", since if successful, he moves on and your ducking and countering all the way home"
I'll have to change tactics/strategies/tools to fit the situation, if it means that I must take a kick or 2, so be it: Be Water, My Friend :-)
Xcal>
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