iron palm "bag" vs. board
Original Poster: bluepoet2007
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 30-04-2006, 14:47
Orginal Post: bluepoet2007: Hey all! I took a weekend seminar recently and learned a little about Iron Palm techniques. The sifu who taught recommended to my class "building up" a board with padding in order to strengthen our hands.
On bujindesign.com I saw an "iron palm bag" for sale. I plan to construct my own board according to the instructions given at the seminar, and because it's cheaper.
I'd still like to know what y'all think of the board vs. bag, though. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Post: Wong_Kei_Ying:
Either or is effective, there isn't one that is better than the other... If you want to look at it from an economic view... go with what the Sifu recomended (I would...)>
Post: bamboo:
I prefer the heavy bag to the mariwaki. I find one is fine for hand conditioning but the oter gives me a chance to really hit. Its difficult as hell to throw combinations at a board hung on the wall. :wink:>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=bamboo I prefer the heavy bag to the mariwaki. I find one is fine for hand conditioning but the oter gives me a chance to really hit. Its difficult as hell to throw combinations at a board hung on the wall. :wink:[/quote
and on the other hand, it's very difficult to practice crane strikes on a bag. vertical knife hands are also difficult to throw on a heavy bag.>
Post: bluepoet2007:
Thanks to all for your recommendations. I will go with what Sifu recommended anyway. . I was just curious.
p.s bamboo, the bag mentioned was NOT a heavy bag, curiously. it looked more like a small square bean-bag from the image online. bujindesign.com has it somewhere>
Post: Wong_Kei_Ying:
[quote=bamboo I prefer the heavy bag to the mariwaki. I find one is fine for hand conditioning but the oter gives me a chance to really hit. Its difficult as hell to throw combinations at a board hung on the wall. :wink:[/quote
The heavy bag has its advantages. You can condition not only you hand, but your forearms, as well as other parts of your body...
But BLACK PANTA has it right on the money...
Iron palm requires the Bones and Skin to be hard and tough. The bag will do just that.... But to master Iron Palm, one must hit different types of surfaces and objects with different densities...
All the best bluepoet2007... It took me a while>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Bluepoet, a few comments about Iron Palm training. First, make sure your Sifu not only shows you the proper striking methodologies but also gives you the appropriate herbs and explains how to apply them and when during and after your training. Without this, potential nerve damage and structural damage will occur, not only in the striking surface but peripherally up to and including other parts of the internal bone, muscle, and tendon structure. Also, make sure you are totally relaxed during striking, have been taught the appropriate breathing inhalation and exhaling techniques, and make it progressive according to your Sifu's instructions. It is very important that you realize that this is a potentially dangerous exercise and with take approximately 1-3 years to get it to the point that it is useful. Although people like Pan Fu and Brian Gray exhibit a hard strike methodology, both my Shaolin sifu and my Ying Jow sifu use to emphasize steel palm progressing to cotton steel palm and eventually cotton palm where the hand surface is actually soft with very little callusing and the internal power generated from jing, compression, and speed were the main attributes causing internal damage to one's opponent.
As far as striking surfaces, one can use a phone book, or start of with sand/gravel, progress to iron/steel beads, and up to steel tables, etc. It is VERY important to sink one's hips and legs while rooting during the explosive contact between the striking surface and the hand. This way, the iron palm is developed using the entire surface of the hand with the rest of the body connected.
Just some pieces of advice I was given during my iron palm, iron skirt, and other training. I will tell you though, interestingly, that once i commenced taiji practice simultaneously with my kung fu and iron palm training it softened the approach and make the iron palm strike more dependent upon waist, jing, and snapping/penetrating action that just actual power strikes.
Good luck, and remember to do exactly what your Sifu shows you during the development of this great weapon!!!>
Post: bluepoet2007:
Bloodybirds,
Thanks. This is relatively new to me(learned just a teeny bit during a weekend seminar w/some masters from Chi Lin gung fu and kenpo, etc) and the sifu who taught my class did recommend a brandy/ginger solution to be applied before training.
Thanks for your advice!>
Post: Bloodybirds:
You are welcome Blue!!! Always willing to save someone else the pains of my experience. Also, iron palm, dim mak, etc. are wonderful techniques but done improperly can be more damage to you than to someone else!!! Try to find a good dit da jow medicine from a Chinatown or order one from Bak Le Tai in NYC or somewhere...use to be made of tiger bone, wine, etc. but killing tigers for the true medicine now banned so you might have to find a substitute.....just beware of watered down versions. Ginger mix you talked about is good for toughening the skin and some chi help but does not dissipate the bruising and soreness like real jow or tiger claw medicine.>
Post: Gazelle:
[quote="Bloodybirds" ...use to be made of tiger bone, wine, etc. but killing tigers for the true medicine now banned so you might have to find a substitute.....[quote
And so it should be!>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=Bloodybirds use to be made of tiger bone[/quote
Tiger bone is good for sumethin else if you know what i mean :wink:>
Post: bamboo:
Please Panta, explain for all of us. :lol:>
Post: Bloodybirds:
BP, I know exactly what you mean, and given the population of China,may be another reason that it was banned to enforce the "one child" rule instituted during the Cultural Revolution...I am sorry you brought that up....BP.....sometimes a sore spot...... 8)>
Post: nbotary:
I think the generic version is now known as "Viagra". :lol:>
Post: bluepoet2007:
Hey Bloodybirds, all I did was mention the solution a sifu told me about! LMAO. Y'all are crazy.>
Post: bluepoet2007:
Hey Bloodybirds, all I did was mention the solution a sifu told me about! LMAO. Y'all are crazy.>
Post: Gazelle:
We're all people...people and crazy go together better than a bird and a feather.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Blue, as my brother NB, Wushu, or Stazzy will tell ya, I am kinda crazy. But better too much info...... :wink:>
Post: Bloodybirds:
hey gazelle, no bird jokes!!!! :P>
Post: Wong_Kei_Ying:
>>>This<<<:D>
Post: Gazelle:
[quote=Bloodybirds hey gazelle, no bird jokes!!!! :P[/quote
And why would that be now, Bloodybirds??? :)
Wong_Kei_Ying, the link doesn't work.>
Post: Wong_Kei_Ying:
Sorry about that.... It should work now>
Post: Gazelle:
No problems, it works perfectly now, thank you.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Gazelle, I am very sensitive about my beak...... :lol: although NB's is bigger......lol>
Post: Gazelle:
Could we be looking at another revealing argument between you and NB? :)>
Post: Bloodybirds:
No, I gave him another life lesson when we trained Sunday morning before I headed out for another week of consulting in North Carolina for the week. Although when we spar I do have to say both of us have to ensure neither leads with our nose!!! Although mine has shrunk with time and almost 30 years of fighting....lol. Besides, NB does not get mad, my friend and sidei usually gets even!!!! 8)>
Post: Gazelle:
It's shrunk??? Your nose and ears are the two parts of your body that actually continually grow throughout your life, so you must have had some impacts!>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Gazelle, I respectfully disagree with you on your growth comment...on males, as we age, while the hair on the head continues to decline in population, the rest of the body seems to pick up those hairs in other places, possibly reverting us back to our stone age ancestors?! As a result, our bodies grow warmer but our heads grow cooler.....thus explaining our inability to listen better as our age continues......at least that is my story..... :? :? :? :P In any event, luckily I have other redeeming qualities.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Oh, as far as impacts, my lady, not so much in Ying Jow, White Crane, or Tai chi, but my Shaolin master and my three elders in that class did have a great "impact" upon my body......torn ACL, rotator cuff, 6 broken ribs at various times, stitches (once when a darn dao sword became embedded in my wrist, whoops)....luckily, everything is pretty much repaired but I have gotten shorter over the years.....after all of this time, thank goodness for good medicine, good acupuncture, good doctors, and great dit da jow!!!And for tai chi, it taught me that yin can exist in an anger management situation.....LOL.>
Post: Gazelle:
Ouch!!! What were they doing to you, man?
I actually meant by the growing thing that they were the only part of your body as in parts like your hands and your legs are. But your explanation was most interesting!>
Post: Bloodybirds:
SHAOLIN TRAINING, SIR!!! Sorry, I love the movie Stripes with Bill Murray so had to do a takeoff.....my Shaolin master definitely increased my threshold for pain, street fighting smarts, and other stuff. But it was definitely a more painful lesson than the traditional classes I have taken under my two other masters. I told him he would just have to kill me rather than put me through it again!!!! He felt the same way about his 103 year old master in Hong Kong he grew up with.....said he loved going through 12 years from age 3-15 in Hong Kong with his master but would not or could not do it now!!! Oh, to be young and stupid again!!!>
Post: nbotary:
Gazelle, the only thing growing is the pile of shit that he's putting in front of you when he brings me into a conversation!!! :wink: :lol: :wink: :lol: :wink: :lol:
Bloodybirds, I don't have any "shrinkage" problems, but I hear there's a little blue pill you can take for that!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
By the way, he does indeed have some redeeming qualities...
I've yet to figure them out, but I'm sure they're around somewhere!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry bro, I haven't bagged on you in awhile either - I already know I'm gonna pay for it next time we train!!! :wink: :D>
Post: samurai6string:
It sounds like we need to combine schnoz powers, I have a rather large Romanesque nose myself.... :wink:>
Post: Gazelle:
Oh, the antics. :)>
Post: Bloodybirds:
My steamed colleague cannot take constructive criticism without a blow to the head... :lol: :lol: :lol: :P
He, too, has several redeeming qualities.....most times he can get out of the way of something coming at him, he does have good lookin' progeny,and he is a good and loyal friend.
But, I hate to say this Gazelle, but between you and me, I think he has taken too many punches....."I coulda been a contenda"
NB, have you noticed Staz and Wushu have not been on here lately since we had to temp suspend our Tuesdays while I travel. Where are you my young padawons? Those two have so much potential and work so hard it is going to be fun to see how both turn out as martial artists and as adults.....miss those days when striving to reach potential.
By the way, fellow martial arts people, I must say a true test of one's dedication is to have to do consulting work out of town and continue at night at the hotel to go outside and practice either kung fu or tai chi while every one else is relaxing. Oh, well, the path we have chosen. It is a nice way to wind down and it is a much better alternative to going to a bar after work...... :wink: :wink:
One other comment to all: lately, my oldest brother in Ying Jow has informed me he may have to shut down his school of 6 years due to rent increases, my Ying Jow master's school has closed after 35 years in NYC and two of the seniors there teach at a combined function school currently, my Shaolin master teaches privately, and my master here in Houston has almost no growth in the last 3 years.....due to gas prices, cost of living, etc impacting disposable income? Or, something deeper about most people today not wanting to spend time/energy in learning an art that takes many years? And, if this is true, why are tae kwon do schools and karate schools still packing em in? They are not caught up in lineage, tradition to an extent, etc. Anyone have thoughts on this?>
Post: bamboo:
Mcdojos, like the VAST majority of TKD and karate schools are feel good holes that cater to the lowest level student.
Its easy and always fun so they stay in business. As well, N. American culture dictates that quality = pay more, sooooo, you pay for each belt rank and 44 "stripes" in between, write off the "company" (read owners) SUV and boom, you have a viable fair, i mean MA school, no I mean fair....
-bamboo>
Post: samurai6string:
I agree with Bamboo, also the FTC doesn't exactly go around and call "bullshit" on some of these "sensei's" claims. It seems like anyone can claim to be anything. In that kind of environment, who is going to seek out a true master with REAL lineage, when every po-dunk town in America has at least 5 "National Champions" or "Sole-Inheritor-of-Seacret-Asian-Fighting-Arts" ? We live in a fastfood world, it only makes sense that the majority of consumers want fastfood fighting as well. Have you had your McDojo today?>
Post: Gazelle:
[quote=Bloodybirds NB, have you noticed Staz and Wushu have not been on here lately since we had to temp suspend our Tuesdays while I travel. Where are you my young padawons? Those two have so much potential and work so hard it is going to be fun to see how both turn out as martial artists and as adults.....miss those days when striving to reach potential.[/quote
I'm willing to bet you still have a lot more potential left in you.
I don't know about staz, but wushu, i know has been working on something that's taking up a lot of his time, or by the sounds of it.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Gazelle, Wushu is trying to get into either NYU (New York U.) or USC for screenwriting education and going through that stuff. He and Stas still train religiously when I see both of them.>
Post: Stazzy:
Don't lose hope. I'm still alive, haha. :lol: I've been going through a lot of necessary and unnecessary BS in my life lately. The necessary being my AP Statistics and AP English 3 college credit exams, writing an argumentative paper on affirmative action, and preparing to take the SAT; the unnecessary being putting up with teenage girl drama.
I just attempted to medidate using both the extended chi-to-the-finger and the balance-the-staff versions of the ma bu that Bloody taught me...I think you have to be a bit of a masochist do enjoy some of the training we go through. :roll: I'm going to be at Sifu Bolt's tomorrow, so feel free to beat me up during some free fighting.
It's good to see you guys on the boards, but it'd be even better if I could see all of us brothers training together at OC or TH. :)>
Post: Gazelle:
My first A-level exam is on the 23rd May, i have them through to the 22nd June, i think.
We have SATs under the UK system, but they're taken by people oe age 10 and 13. And they're not compulsory, they are basically there for the government t make an assessment on teaching. So, what is the SAT in the US?>
Post: Stazzy:
Since no two schools will be exactly alike based on GPA-scoring and ranking, the SAT is the standardized solution to test a student's academic ability. I think it kind of sucks because it only measures math, critical reading, and writing abilities (and several years ago there wasn't even any writing), but from their perspective, I can see why it's accepted as the primary test to get into college. Each school has their own cut-off for the scores they'll accept, but state schools will accept students in the top 10% of their high school class regardless of their SAT scores. I like the 10% rule only because it helps me, but I don't think it's fair to everyone. Some senior classes will have 400 students, with a top 10% of 40 students that will get into any state school automatically, while others will have as little as 80 students, where the top 10% is only 8 people. This makes it hard for students outside of the top 10% to get into high-on-demand colleges like UT Austin (woot go longhorns) and Texas A&M (Bloody's arch nemesis :lol: ) since the schools have to automatically accept anyone in the top 10% of their high school class.
Sorry if I got carried away or deviated from my answer to your original question, but that's the gist of how the SAT and high school ranks affect colleges. I assumed it'd be about the same in the UK, but I guess I was wrong. How's your system work?>
Post: nbotary:
I'll be sure to keep that "nemisis" comment fresh for the next time I see you!!! :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol:>
Post: samurai6string:
Now i feel old, my SAT didn't have an essay. I took both the SAT and the ACT, because I can do really well on tests, but I was lazy and had poor grades. 8) I also was jipped here in WV because the year after I graduated they instituted the promise scholarship, and with my test scores and grades I could have gotten a free ride to any state school, but the scholarship wasn't retro-active so I got screwed for being a year too old. :cry: But it's all good now, because I'm 25 the state is paying for my education anyways through the West Virginian Higher Education Act. :) Thanks tax payers!!
Stazzy> you should look into the ACT if you feel that way, it tests on Math, Reading Comprehension, General English, & Science.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Stazzy, I miss you, John, NB, Wushu, etc. more than you know. Today I was back in town but had to take my son to his soccer game at 1030 but I will be in class next Saturday after I return from NC. I promise you I train up there outside the hotel every night for 1-3 hours. As soon as I get a perm position back in Texas, we will reconstitute the Tuesday classes. Sorry everyone for the kinda personal note.
As far as SAT, etc. back in my day the parents and teachers did not care about kids' feelings or personal correctness but taught what was needed and you did not go to college if you did not have the basics. Funny, we never needed standardized tests until schools would dummy down to meet the lowest common denominator and not the highest. That, plus worrying about our kids' feelings, is where we went wrong. By the time we went to college, we could read, write, do math, etc. and the colleges did not have to spend the first year catching up skill sets for that level. I even notice the dichtonomy when I went to grad school the last two years. Those under a certain age had a tough time in grad school due to the extensive writing requirements. Those of my generation or a little younger (over 35) had little issue with this.
We as the boomer generation did a great disservice to our children and their children by not insisting that they achieve to their greatest ability, no matter what that level was. If you were in the top 10% for UT in my day, you got in regardless of SAT scores but the school knew you already had decent skills. Exceptions like Stas and Wushu are gratifying because they have overcome what I consider generally incompetent schooling to achieve and learn well. Today, one achieves in school inspite of what is taught, not because of it!!!
Sorry about the rant.
Miss all of my brothers in Houston but will be back full tilt soon...until then, train hard and learn all you can.>
Post: Gazelle:
It is a little different in UK, still the same problems with dumming down content, but...
Compulsory schooling stops at 16, from 14-16 you do GCSE's you can get away very nicely, as i have proved with 5, yet people tend to take at around 10. They're graded up to A*, a U is a fail, and you have to do exceptionally bad to get that. After that, if you choose, you may go on to 6th form or college. 6th form is in a school and a college, well, you know what that is! You study the same thing in both, it's just a slightly different environment. You can pick anything up to 5 A-levels, which are subject specific, like the individual GCSE's, but that is basically bad news, so your better off with doing no more than four, and then after the second year you tend to drop one (also a good idea). THere are more vocational courses you can do in place of A-levels like NVQ's, but, A-levels are the more traditional choice, and if you want to study a subject at university you usually need to do an A-level in that subject, or a related subject, in some circumstances. College or 6th form, usually lasts for 2 years, so until you're 18, but you can drop out any time, or, come back, though you normally can't go to a 6th form if your over 18. After 6th form, you can decide that you've had enough of schooling, or you can go to university and study a specific subject. There are 3 year courses and 4 year courses, then obviously there is postgrad. (i'm hopoing to do a PhD after at the moment). The first year in University, is generally mking sure that everyone is at the same level because there are a lot of different syllabuses for every subject, with different content (why they cannot have one, i'll never know).
That is basically it.
Thanks for explaining the system there for me.>
Post: Gazelle:
Oh, and i forgot to mention. You get entrance to universities based upon A-level grades primarily, though some ask for interviews and entrance tests. For college or 6th form, you gain entrance based upon GCSE grades, very occassionally they might ask for interveiw or entrance test, depending on how much in demand, and how good it is.>
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