little help for a jjj guy?
Original Poster: samurai6string
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 20-01-2006, 21:03
Orginal Post: samurai6string: I'm thinking about looking into KF for something to compliment what I know, and fill some holes (jjj and wrestling). I prefer open hand strikes to punches, no fancy high kicks or jumping, something good for eliminating space and closing the gap. Any advice on a style or forms?
Post: WushuPadawan001:
You sound like a White Crane or Tong Bei (White Ape) kind of guy to me.
Let the flaming of my response begin!!!!!!!!!!>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
Oh man there are quite a few styles to choose from one being Wing Chun for sure, great trapping there. Some others are Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, pretty much southern styles of KF. You know what you'd probably enjoy...Jeet Kune Do. Try JKD aswell.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
Chen style Taiji or a solid Xingyi would be excellent for what you need.
Contrary to the advice of others, many southern styles, especially Wing Chun, are meant for close-range engagements so you'd find them leaving something to be desired since you want to close the gap. While the northern styles do incorporate distance-closing techniques, they also usually involve more acrobatic techniques and the kicking you want to avoid. Taiji and Xingyi are sort of in between, with many bridging techniques to take you out of striking range to clinching/grappling very quickly. A good Xingyi curriculum will even involve the use of ankle picks and other takedowns you may already be familiar with, so that style in particular may be something you'd like to explore.
Also, keep in mind that while certain schools will give you certain tools, it is up to you to define how they are used. Just because the typical use of a screwdriver is to operate a screw doesn't mean you can't use it as a substitute for a crowbar, if the circumstances are right. If you were to learn any given style, they may not show you the techniques in the manner you wish to use them, but you can use them for that manner anyhow. Closing the gap to alternate between striking and clinching is sometimes hard to learn because most styles prefer one over the other. Whatever you decide, it may be up to you to make it work the way you want. Good luck.>
Post: samurai6string:
Thanks for the advise all. I started thinking about it because my Brother-in-law studies Shaolin. (well, he has for about 2 years now, most of his MA experience is in Tang Soo Do/Shotokan) He was saying something about Dragon form being used to draw people in and fill space, any truth in that or did I maybe misunderstand? either way, I'm gonna check up on those styles. KF just seems too cool, and a good way to spice up my normal routine for a while. :)
BTW Wushu> I had to LOL when you mentioned White Ape (which I had never heard of but am Googling now :) ) because I have short legs with a long torso and arms and my fiancee and others tell me I walk/look like an ape (the fact I'm hairy doesn't help matters. :) )>
Post: nbotary:
Samurai - send a pm to Bloodybirds and tell him what area you are in. He probably knows someone in your area that he can recommend or he can make a few inquiries and help point you in the right direction. You should also tell him what you are trying to accomplish and he can suggest some things to look for and to avoid. The last thing you want to learn is "Shaolin-Do" from some dipshit at a McDojo!!!>
Post: samurai6string:
yeah, deff. Nbot. My bro-in-law's sifu is actually an old friend of my jjj sensei. He doesn't teach class per se anymore, he works with at risk youth and such, doesn't really maintain a dojo. Bro found him through a defunct Columbian KF page cross referenced with the phone book. Then it turns out that he and my sensei knew each other from like 30+ years before.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
yeah bro, you wanna make sure that whatever you get into is not bullshit. There are many bullshit schools out there. Look for a good, and prominent lineage. Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, WC lineages are relatively easy to verify. Even Yang style Taiji lineage is pretty easy. The arts that Des mentined are pretty hard to bullshit. Xingyi and Chen style Taiji are two styles that you can see the bullshit in the forms etc etc. couple of other styles you can look at is Pi Gua, Ba Gua>
Post: samurai6string:
would you consider the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame a good source? it links to this site :)>
Post: WushuPadawan001:
Also I?d check out some schools affiliated with the YMAA (Yang Martial Arts Association). Just Google ?YMAA? and you?ll get a link to their website. If it?s YMAA it?s okay (hey, that rhymed)>
Post: nbotary:
[quote=WushuPadawan001 If it?s YMAA it?s okay (hey, that rhymed)[/quote D'OH!!!*smack's head*>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=WushuPadawan001 Also I?d check out some schools affiliated with the YMAA (Yang Martial Arts Association). Just Google ?YMAA? and you?ll get a link to their website. If it?s YMAA it?s okay (hey, that rhymed)[/quote
Are you sure you don't want him to check out the YMCA? It obviously works for Indians, Bikers, Policemen, etc.>
Post: samurai6string:
and you can do whatever you feel>
Post: nbotary:
It should also make you feel like a "Macho Man" who was "In the Navy" before you learned that it was fun to stay at the "YMCA"... :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Laughing so hard my sides split out!!! Samurai, Dragon style/form depends upon striking while walking what is called the figure 8 pattern where one walks as if in a figure eight and if the opponent steps within range of any of 16 points the dragon strikes with either a specialty dragon kick (kinda like a heel kick) or dragon hands (either a more opened claw than fu jow, sorry, tiger claw, or with the index and middle finger bent like a phoenix eye finger for dim mak/da mak striking). Dragon never backs up but one must also be learning Shaolin boxing at the same time to develop iron wire or iron body techniques as a dragon accepts chi and gives it back to his/her opponent.
If you tell me where you live, I can probably do some research or know someone who can provide you with legit people in your area. Years of competing and judging all over has allowed me the honor of meeting some really incredible masters and sifus all over the country. Let me know if I can help, my friend.>
Post: zefff:
[quote=Tease T Tickle Chen style Taiji or a solid Xingyi would be excellent for what you need.
Contrary to the advice of others, many southern styles, especially Wing Chun, are meant for close-range engagements so you'd find them leaving something to be desired since you want to close the gap.[/quote
Ive only just read up on this thread so excuse me but although you are right generally speaking, you are actually a bit off the mark if the school is not a run of the mill pansy outfit. WC training should be focused on closing the distance as a very important foundation so that once you are close there is no fighting to be done because you have already captured a dominant position from which to finish with the commonly associated WC strikes etc.
There are 3 emptyhand forms, the first is about correctness, the third is about correcting mistakes and the 2nd is concerned with closing the distance.
The problem is the way WC is generally taught. I went to a dodgy Kwoon before for a while and there was a blatant lack of body harmony in the techinques and how they were taught. Most days we did arms, somedays we did legs. Dudes stood rooted to the spot and stuff like that. Ridiculous! I would spend the whole day telling people to fix their footwork and even laughing at how some could not advance to attack. WING CHUN IS NOT AN ART OF RETALIATION ALONE!!!
If you are only taught how to fight from close range then isnt that partial?
This is all my own opinion of course. Maybe I am wrong but I wouldnt want to go to any partial art that was only effective from the waist up! :lol:>
Post: Bloodybirds:
zefff...is that not indicative of the differences between modified WC and the traditional. I have a friend who is the senior student of Augustine Fong and one thing he relayed to me is that over the years the excellent original footwork of WC has been generally extracted in the modified version. What do you think about that? If, as we have been taught, WC originally had some southern crane roots, then where is the footwork. My friend also said the dummy form (I forget which of the three that is) originally had excellent footwork? I am just curious as I have seen Sifu Benny Meng, Hawkins Cheng, and others move quite a bit when they are doing their WC. This is from someone who has been in kung fu a long time but never done WC. Sooo....what do you think? Thanks buddy.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
I don't as much about the footwork, but most American WC schools (at least from my perceptions of them) focus very strongly on the trapping, center line theory and chain punches. I suppose chain punches could be used to close the distance, but I don't think the repeated strikes really let your enter the same way that an open-hand to elbow grip does, which you might see in Taiji or eagle claw.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
In Ying jow, there are many very good pre-entries before applying the jow da cum na or 108 locks. Along with the very effective ying jow sweeps used in the corresponding locks, for instance in the form siu min jeung, the style does have very effective moving in and controlling techniques.>
Post: zefff:
[quote=Tease T Tickle I don't as much about the footwork, but most American WC schools (at least from my perceptions of them) focus very strongly on the trapping, center line theory and chain punches. I suppose chain punches could be used to close the distance, but I don't think the repeated strikes really let your enter the same way that an open-hand to elbow grip does, which you might see in Taiji or eagle claw.[/quote
(Disclaimer: This is all just my opinion. Im not an authority or anything)
I think it was a bit late when I posted before but I was trying to get across the fact that a lot of WC schools seem to focus on certain elements and not the whole, the whole body, legs, waist and upper body should be one unit but WC seems to be an upper body art the way some people practice it - and that's why the common preconception of the art is one of trapping, centreline attacks and chain punching.
All that is a part of it you are right, but it isnt the whole. A lot of WC I have come into contract with are very good a covering 2 yards forward (but cant sidestep well, retreat, circle and change direction or stances etc,) because they do a lot of trapping work where they press forward over a short distance.
The second problem is because they have become so good at jamming and trapping, they might prefer to seek the trap rather than a direct strike. They forget about attacking the centre. Chasing the hands is a big problem for a lot of intermediate students Ive seen. IMHO this is caused by being taught the complicated trapping movements before having a solid and prolonged striking and footwork conditioning program. I guess a lot of schools teach traps early because its magic might keep the newcomers attention (and money) longer than any painful exercises or endless repetition of a single move that conditions the body correctly.
Trapping is convoluted and so logically (IMHO) cannot be the root essence of WC which is economy and directness. You only trap if a limb is in your attack path, but its not the only option.
I never use chain punches while entering. I used to do it then I realised it is BS. Chain punches should be used to finish off once you are already in and have secured a straight path to a target. Chain punches should never hit thin air! I personally hate that nowadays! I find its quite easy to evade and counter, parry and counter or even attack the limbs themselves when people chain punch as they move forward.
I dont know about the specific elbow grip you mentioned but I can say that we are taught to attack the elbow with pressing, pulling, pushing and turning when its presented because it is a point of control. But again we should not seek the elbow from afar.
[quote=Bloodybirds zefff...is that not indicative of the differences between modified WC and the traditional. I have a friend who is the senior student of Augustine Fong and one thing he relayed to me is that over the years the excellent original footwork of WC has been generally extracted in the modified version. What do you think about that? If, as we have been taught, WC originally had some southern crane roots, then where is the footwork. My friend also said the dummy form (I forget which of the three that is) originally had excellent footwork? I am just curious as I have seen Sifu Benny Meng, Hawkins Cheng, and others move quite a bit when they are doing their WC. This is from someone who has been in kung fu a long time but never done WC. Sooo....what do you think? Thanks buddy.[/quote
I dont know about modified and traditional. I would imagine modified is a personal thing so their must be loads of slightly different types, who knows. But this static thing might be okay for self defence in a tight spot but its not the whole picture. Apparently I am taught traditional WC but I might go into class and we wont do any WC at all. We might do chin na, shuai jiao, takedowns and throws or even practise with poles. Somedays we might spend 2 hours stretching followed by high kicks and kicking combinations!!! Its a WC school but we dont just punch air on the spot.
I am a 'modified man' if anything because Panantukan is my root art and I cannot help but use it. Everything we do involves footwork though and only people in the first month of lessons might do drills stationary. Its also possible that because the first form is stationary, people identify this with WC practice.
Wooden dummy form (Muk Yan Jong) is the forth form followed by 8 cut knives (Bat jaam do) and pole (I dont know that one :lol:) I know a bit of MYJ but havent memorised it yet. There is a LOT of simultaneous striking, parrying and footwork in the form and although Im not at that level I can see the benefits when I practice the form. Everyone at our school is taught some Muk Yan Jong, I think because it forces you to be correct and links back to Siu Lim Tau (1st form).>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Zefff thank you so much for your reply. Though of course I have been a "bird" for a long time, laughing, I have always admired WC for its economy of movement and the way it attacks and protects along the centerline. Ironically, when I trained in NYC, the only martial art that the Tong members in Chinatown trained in was WC, and there were 3 schools that taught them exclusively. Needless to say, we never really bothered them...lol. That was during the 80s at least.
I also wanted to ask someone like you because I do not care for Inside Kung Fu political attempts with William Chenug, Leung Ting, etc. Like them trying to provoke the Lau branch of Ying Jow with the Ng Wei branch of ying jow that my Ying Jow teacher Leung Shum now leads. Lau Fat Mon taught his senior Ng Wei who taught Leung Shum, his senior and godson. The Lau sisters, Gini and Lili, learned from their dad until teenagers when he died. Only their brother, James, really learned the whole locking system. But both branches are great and legit sides of the same coin of Ying Jow!! Similarly, wing chun, or wing tsun, it is beautiful for me to watch no matter who does it. Not being a practitioner of it, I have interest because I see alot of similarities between chi sau from WC and push hands from taiji. I think alot of the bridging, sensitivity, and movement theories are very similar and effective.
Thanks alot, as always, for allowing this old-timer to get educated again!!!>
Post: zefff:
No worries, after reading Mr Strings original question though I would not advise him to start Wing Chun. :lol: Maybe JKD.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=zefff (Disclaimer: This is all just my opinion. Im not an authority or anything)...[/quote
I don't have a specific point in your post to address and I don't want to make people scroll forever, so I left the quote as you see it now.
I think that you and I have the same perception of the common denominator of contemporary Wing Chun. Many students start throwing the chain punch from yards away to keep the other guy from being able to advance and then start trapping for no good reason whatsoever and finish the sparring session with more chain punches. That being said, I'm curious as to how you prefer to enter on an opponent when you use WC.
The elbow entrance I was shown by a local Taiji instructor (he said the technique was also present in eagle claw, or that he borrowed it from eagle claw, I'm not sure this is about three years ago) had him parry the lead hand strike at the wrist and follow with an open palm to the point of the elbow, which open impact immediately became a grip on the elbow, which the instructor then used to pull himself into the opponent by stepping forward and pulling downward on the elbow. He finished the entrance with a palm to the chin as the opponent was being pulled down and then a throw that by all accounts looked very similar to an osoto geri.>
Post: zefff:
[quote=Tease T Tickle
I think that you and I have the same perception of the common denominator of contemporary Wing Chun. Many students start throwing the chain punch from yards away to keep the other guy from being able to advance and then start trapping for no good reason whatsoever and finish the sparring session with more chain punches. That being said, I'm curious as to how you prefer to enter on an opponent when you use WC.[/quote
You got it! Its a weak flurry that fails to cover up a lack of time spent on developing attack equally as well as defence.
As for how I prefer to enter...in a real fight I will decide in my head that yes, I want to hurt them, decide how badly I want them hurt and then try to build fear in them with some chat. When/if I see them weak I will then improvise a small distraction or have my freind cause one so I can directly and continually attack them until they are hurt. Verbal engagement and posturing to create fear is the entering technique.
...In sparring, contest or a duel I like to draw or back up and feint at changing levels, attacking directly with strikes in combination. Nothing fancy. It depends who you are fighting. I like to be unorthadox but a straight jab or low lead kick is my bread and butter really. I also like to call for a pause in the bout and then attack them while their guard is down.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Tease, one technique you describe is similar to one of locks 11-20 in Ying Jow of the jow da cum na or 108 locks. The lock on the wrist and elbow would then have one of two results: press forward while twisting the arm over until your opponent is going forward and neutralized or pulling the opponent end and doing a front toe kick underneath the armpit while pulling in or straight to the solar plexus or knee, depending upon desired targets.
Yang style taiji also has a similar bridge off of moving push hands similar to what Zefff describes from what I assume are bridging techniques from the chi sau in WC, but I may be wrong there, with props to Zefff. Most kung fu and internal styles all have closing and bridging techniques to close the gap and choose targets. Also, unlike Zefff, I immediately drop into a split without warm up, do an incredibly fast outside crescent kick, smile, and then ask the opponent to wait a minute while I prepare, LOL. By then, he has run away!!!>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Sorry, I meant pull opponent in, not end!!! It is Sunday morning while doing laundry and watching my 9 year old vacuum.>
Post: opariser1001:
Mr. Bloodybirds, just for future reference there should be an edit button that you can use to edit your post instead of double posting. Just in case you didn't know. :D>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Oprariser, duh.....I see it now.....that is probably why it is there!! I feel so smart sometimes.>
Post: samurai6string:
master's degree says what? :)>
Post: nbotary:
D'OH!!!
Nice burn Samurai, nice burn!!! Sorry Mike, had to do it!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Samurai, I expected that from my brother, but Et Tu Brute? At least be my second as I disembowel myself....but then, no more Samurai Sandwich maker? Noooooooooo!!!!!!! Look to Opraiser's icon....I am the guy on the bottom....please let me up brothers!!!>
Post: samurai6string:
It was too easy Bloody, I almost felt dirty. S'alright though, you'll have plenty of opportunity for redemption as I'm fairly well known for missing the obvious as well.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Well, take a bath, so you feel better about yourself. One thing I hate are good martial artists rolling around in the mud....jeez!!!! This is what I get for learning 273 new formulas and writing 5000 words in 30 minutes glorifying our way of life....lol. Well, got off early, going to go work out for a little bit before picking up the prodigal son for the weekend.
Everyone have a great weekend. Samurai, y'all have to come down here sometime and play with Wushu, NB, and myself. I think you would have fun.>
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