Sanda v2.0? A Proposition
Original Poster: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 03-08-2006, 00:17
Orginal Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn: The recent discussion on CMA, sanda and K1 started me thinking, and last night, I had an epiphany. As we all know, sanda is really not CMA at all except in the loosest sense of the word - the kicking and legwork is a piss-poor mishmash of TKD *groan*, karate kickboxing and, in recent years, muay thai, the handwork is derived from boxing and only the wrestling component has any sort of true Chinese influence in it. 'San Da' in the traditional sense simply refers to any sort of free-sparring/fighting, or fighting techniques of the 'I-need-to-fight-next-week!' flavour - incidentally, the San Da techniques of CLF are very popular with triad gangsters to this very day. Also, in China, it is well-known that the most successful Sanda fighters either have a traditional background or else are trained with elements of traditional styles that do improve ring performance. Zeng Guanglin, a Shanghai-based Sanda coach (and a personal friend of mine), is a solid traditional stylist and swears by the throws and takedowns he teaches his boys.
Still, it begs the question - why, when there are more than 5000 known styles of Chinese martial art, is there only one mainstream competition that even begins to allow a form of controlled comparison of them in man-to-man combat, and even then results in all contestants fighting in more or less exactly the same way? To this end, I did some thinking, and I figured that a MMA competition (as it were) could be designed in such a way as to allow traditional Chinese stylists to show off their skills in as free an environment as possible while keeping it safe enough that it doesn't become outlawed outright (a little controversy, on the other hand, can only help to generate publicity and, more importantly, funding :mrgreen:).
Firstly, the question of the compromise between safety, realism and the freedom to fully express one's fighting art comes up. Sanda is woefully inadequate in this regard - 16oz gloves alone render a huge array of traditional techniques useless and, while vastly better in this regard, many MMA gloves are still not quite ideal. Also, what methods of scoring a win should be allowed and which should be outlawed? An especially pertinent issue given the vicious nature of many traditional styles - molly-coddle the fighters, or take the example of the ancient lei tai competitions, buggering the rules (and likewise the losers, who often forfeited their lives in the ring) and declaring an absolute vale tudo?
Concerning the rules, perhaps the best solution would be to create various divisions, as is done in other contact sports, with varying levels of expected skill and risk. Each successively higher division would employ progressively less protective equipment and impose fewer restrictions on technique. At the highest or 'ultimate' level, one could perhaps employ Brazil Vale Tudo-like rules, removing all but the bare minimum of protective equipment and outlawing everything short of the use of a weapon in the ring. Legality issues would be the main concern here, but one can see this taking off in China with the right connections (as with everything else).
With regard to the safety equipment, the solution is relatively simple - design equipment specifically catering to the sensibilities of traditional stylists - as unrestrictive as possible while still providing enough protection to prevent most accidental fatalities and maimings in the ring. So far, I have only given thought to the glove (since that is the main piece of protective equipment in an MMA contest) and thought of the rough design of a segmented model - various stipulated primary striking areas of the hand are protected by thin but dense strips of padding connected by strips or chords of elastic that hold the structure together. One possible candidate for a good material to use might be silicone-based gel foam, which is incredibly dense and has good shock-absorbing capabilities. The main striking surfaces to be padded would likely be the tips of the fingers (individual caps of material like thimbles), the knuckles and back of the hand (a fairly broad strip of material with articulations) and perhaps the knife-edge of the hand (an articulated extension of the hand/knuckle pad). The gloves might well be tailored to individual fighting divisions, with the highest divisions providing padding to none but the most immediately dangerous of striking surfaces to provide full play to the hands and wrists. Lower divisions might employ elbow and knee pads of varying thickness, and amateur and perhaps semi-pro or low-level professional tournaments might stipulate the use of headguards such as are used in other amateur combat sports. Likewise, protective cups would preferably be mandatory at all levels, as would be mouthguards, though a special mouthguard might have to be designed as many traditional styles stipulate a certain way of closing the mouth and holding the tongue.
The issue of rules is a relatively simple issue. However, with two notable exceptions - namely Northern Ground Fist and Southern Earth Dragon Fist (also known as Dog Fist) - traditional Chinese styles are predominantly standup fighting styles. Also, the prevalent groundfighting styles mentioned above are fast, acrobatic systems little like the groundfighting often seen in the modern MMA ring. With that in mind, a thirty-second limit on groundfighting might be imposed. Thence, if action on the ground remains inconclusive, the fighters are obliged to break and come to scratch once more. This would encourage the fighters to work in a dynamic fashion and still allow groundfighting specialists to show off their skills adequately. Of course, for special matches or the 'ultimate' divisions, this restriction may be removed.
Here's all I can think of for now, but this will be an ongoing project of mine as I think I may be on to something here :D
Comments? Suggestions? Flames? Milk?
Post: Gong||Jau:
Nice post. I was thinking about gloves that could work with most CMA the other day and basically came up with the same thing you did - strips of padding over the knife edge, back of the hand and fingertips, possibly also on the middle knuckles as well. Of course, those are hardly the only striking surfaces - perhaps some kind of adhesive similar to what's used for athletic tape could be used to cover predetermined areas with gel pads before the match?
I must admit I know absolutely nothing about traditional Chinese groundfighting, so I can't help you at all with that one. The rest of it sounds really good though, especially the rules divisions - imo that nicely circumvents the issue of a lot of strikes, specifically percussive joint attacks. What about round lengths? I almost think that one long round would be best, but it could be argued either way.>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
Good points there, Gong Sao. With regards to the glove, perhaps a modular design might work well? Of course, I failed to mention that I deliberately left out certain striking surfaces in hope that some bright sparks might cotton on and develop those as killing weapons for the ring - blood sells, yew know :twisted:
A good point with the round lengths, too. I haven't thought much over them as yet, but it's a good point - a lot of traditional Chinese styles go for sudden, fast and full-power, fully-committed engagements...which often necessitates a shiteload of setting up between closely-matched opponents, at least, if historical accounts and custom are anything to go by. While one wants plenty of action out of the fighters, one wouldn't want to cramp their style and force them to go with sloppy technique either. With that in mind, a single round would be a good idea since it gets the idea into the fighters' heads that one chance is all they have and make them go all out. As for time limits, that's something that may require some empirical study to determine accurately, but for now, let's assign it an arbitrary value of 10-15 minutes on average, perhaps decreasing as one moves up the divisions to facilitate the action and accommodate the skill level of top-flight fighters.>
Post: The BadBoy:
I have a feeling that these competitions will loook a lot like the early UFC's. As for the silicone gel gloves, They are currently available in the MMA market. In fact the UK scene has now banned their use as getting hit by them is like getting hit by a slab of concrete.>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
[quote=The BadBoy I have a feeling that these competitions will loook a lot like the early UFC's. As for the silicone gel gloves, They are currently available in the MMA market. In fact the UK scene has now banned their use as getting hit by them is like getting hit by a slab of concrete.[/quote
Regarding the UFC lookalikeness, that's something that's been weighing on my mind. Of course, again, with rules divisions to separate the wheat from the chaff, there will hopefully be some quality at the higher levels. Also, the early UFCs had no time limits, no standup follow-throughs on a grounded opponent (which is another large component of many trad styles) and no breaks on the ground action, which basically allowed Royce to play his game of waiting out an opponent. Hopefully, time limits on both rounds and ground action plus legal standup follow-throughs on grounded opponents will speed up the action somewhat and allow the fighters to give full play to their talents.
Still, we won't know for sure until it is actually done, but I do feel it's worth a try, and worth the effort to do it right.
Thanks for the heads-up on the silicone gel, though - didn't know it had a slap like that. I wonder what a good material would be, then?>
Post: The BadBoy:
Don't know why their would be a problem using current MMA gloves. Would something liek these not suffice for the TMAs
I mean the purpose on MMA gloves is to prtect the hands of the practitioners more than the opponents body. Would you really need padding on fingertips and knifehand. how much of a difference would that make? the knifehand if already quite fleshy and your not likely to hurt it. As for the fingers, would padding make any difference? Other than hinder performance.>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
[quote=The BadBoy Don't know why their would be a problem using current MMA gloves. Would something liek these not suffice for the TMAs
I mean the purpose on MMA gloves is to prtect the hands of the practitioners more than the opponents body. Would you really need padding on fingertips and knifehand. how much of a difference would that make? the knifehand if already quite fleshy and your not likely to hurt it. As for the fingers, would padding make any difference? Other than hinder performance.[/quote
Those look quite fine, only I'm a tad worried that the large pad on top plus the wrist straps would hinder freedom of motion in the wrist, which is the main problem I have with MMA gloves. Also, if protection to the hands is the main rationale for wearing glvoes, then perhaps bare knuckles would be the way to go. I'm not sure how keen Chinese official sporting organisations are on sucking up to the IOC and the human rights faggots, though - with China lobbying to host the Olympics and in the final running for the games after this year's, it may be a bad time to slip stuff like this in that would be decried as 'brutal'.
P.S.: Regarding the padding on fingers, that was more out of consideration for the one getting hit than anything else, but now that you mention it, you're right - it wouldn't provide much protection and would probably lead to injury on the part of the one using the finger technique instead.>
Post: 8LimbsScientist:
Going barenuckle will probably lead to a lot more cuts and blood in these matches, and that might be a factor to consider.>
Post: 8LimbsScientist:
http://touroukn.hp.infoseek.co.jp/sekinetv.htm
Hey Hammerhead, what do you think of this? Is this sort of what you mean? I'm not sure, mostly because I don't know what the hell they are saying. I think that at some point they have them fight blindfolded. Which is pretty cool, but I could do without.>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
Interesting thing is, I've heard about something like before happening in Japan, though I've never actually seen it. They sort of seem to have the idea, just that the execution is maybe a bit off (no doubt thanks to the zany Japanese sense of humour :mrgreen: )...though no doubt amateur division fights would more than likely look something like that. It did raise some interesting questions for me, though, one of those being appropriate ring attire. Outside of perhaps shuai jiao or Chinese wrestling, no Chinese martial style has any 'uniform' per se, but then you get wushu jokers doing themselves up in streetwear that's fifty or more years out of date. I suppose ringwear might be standardised as either a shuai jiao grappling uniform, a dogi or else fight shorts like what sanda fighters today wear - that should do nicely.
You're right about the blood and guts...er, cuts, but, like I said earlier, that will hopefully be a selling point - people like to see sanguinary violence :twisted: That and the risk of pain, injury and possible infection would certainly encourage the development of skill in the areas of evasion and defense and drive home the message just how much bare knuckles hurt. Of course, there would be a problem getting insurance for fighters, but as it is, judo and boxing are no longer covered by anyone, at least in Australia, so that's nothing new. The amateur divisions would likely get none, but if enough money goes into the sport, the insurance companies might be oiled enough to come up with a special policy for participants at the higher levels.
Thanks for the links and input!>
Post: Gong||Jau:
The blood is an interesting factor to consider - maybe there should be mandatory blood borne disease screening, or at least two separate divisions, one of which is screened and one of which isn't? I know that the last thing I would want out of a match like that is AIDS or Hepatitis.>
Post: Godfather:
I think this is a great idea. It would be very interesting to witness such an event as you descibed.
Have you considered what type of fighting area the fighters will compete on. For instance; a ring, a caged area, an open padded area, a raised platform, etc. Also, will the fighting area be different for each division, varying in level of skill and risk, or the same for all.>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
Good question regarding the blood - I suppose it would only be common sense to demand mandatory screening for fighters beforehand so that, even if there is cross-contamination in the ring, no one will get terribly sick.
Likewise, a good point regarding the choice of fighting arena. I have been giving this some thought and I find boxing rings and cages somewhat unsatisfactory as there is too much potential for error and abuse - fighters can get tangled or even strangled in ring ropes, some people develop whole fighting styles based on a caged ring *cough* Tito *cough* and raised lei tai are unnecessarily dangerous for most tournaments, IMHO.
For most divisions, I was planning on a padded open arena with no penalties for ring outs - fighters who are knocked out of the ring area are simply brought to scratch and the match is restarted. Perhaps the only exception to this rule would when a groundfight goes out of the ring, whereupon the ring assistants will pause the clock and bring the fighters back to scratch PRIDE-style. However, for specialty matches, such as those featuring regional fighters embodying a certain family of styles and so forth, special rings might well be employed on a case-by-case basis. For instance, in a tourney featuring predominantly Southern fighters, a small caged ring might be used to squash the fighters in together and force them to really show off their infighting skills, while a regional championship up North might well stage the fights on natural terrain like a grass meadow with plenty of space to manoeuvre and no ring-outs. And many, many more besides. Perhaps for the final matches of large tournaments or tournaments held for special occasions (like Chinese New Year), a classical raised lei tai might be used, or even something as spectacular as Plum Flower Piles, if participants are known for their footwork.>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
One other thing I forgot to mention earlier on during the discussion about gloves - my main purpose for padding the fingertips was to save fighters the inconvenience of having their eyes ripped out - I'm led to understand that it can be quite annoying, having to live without eyes. At the very least, the lower divisions should be made to fight with some kind of protective glove that caps the fingertips. Bareknuckle matches should perhaps be saved for the upper-echelon fighters who would be remunerated accordingly for the increased risk.
Speaking of blindfold fighting and specialty ring environments, perhaps more novelty bouts should be introduced, depending on the organisers and the nature of the participants. After all, if this takes off like modern MMA has, the event would be stratified into many levels of popularity, and certain regions might have martial artists famous for a certain kind of skill that might bear some showing off. If nothing else, a little extra colour would go a long way to pushing the hard sell and still keeping the competition honest.
To increase revenue from the sport, I was considering a form of legalised betting, mediated and regulated entirely through the main organisation itself to minimise the criminal underworld from butting in on the action, but I don't really know much about organised sport gambling. Anyone know about this sort of thing?>
Post: The BadBoy:
So your saying eye gouges will be legal?>
Post: Blade:
Current MMA looks good to me.
They should allow striking the back of an opponent and hitting a downed opponent.
The best stage for traditional arts i've seen is Burmese Boxing, much more brutal then MMA :twisted:>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
That I am - might as well go the whole way, eh? I mean, if people are going to claim them as part of their arsenal, might as well give them the chance to put it work and see how it goes. Hence, my main motivation for providing some degree of protection against eye gouges while still legalising them is so that the fighters entering the game at the lower levels won't have to risk losing everything for little to no remuneration - finger caps will ensure that any eye attacks will still hurt (thus instilling some motivation to watch out for and defend against them) but are far less likely to result in permanent damage. True, bare knuckles to the eye are about as bad, but again with the gloves for the lower divisions - I appreciate the value of sanguinary combat as a testing ground for fighting ability, but I don't like the idea of people throwing their health and lives away for little or nothing in return.>
Post: Gong||Jau:
That's an excellent point - if I were ever to compete in such an event, it wouldn't be the pain of an eye gouge that would deter me, it would be the idea that I might lose an eye, have a joint destroyed, etc. That's why I think that the separate tiers is a great idea. Fighters that are skilled enough to enter at the highest level should rarely if ever leave themselves open to such attacks, and I would hope that their opponents wouldn't intentionally cripple them when the opportunity arose :?>
Post: 8LimbsScientist:
Are there people crazy enough to compete in this sort of tourney with rules such as those? You'll never pay a fighter enough to make it worth his while. After a devastating eye gouge or limb destruction, a fighters career might be over. Not to mention that this sport could only be popular overseas. The censors would never let it happen in USA.
I think you should forget about eyegouges and actual joint breaking. Allow everything else but those two aspects.>
Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:
I suppose I should have made it clearer in the beginning that the place to best experiment with this sport and allow it take off was China and similar places. To be honest, were I an organiser, I would have little or no interest in bringing it to US soil for a variety of reasons, legal, political and cultural issues leading the list. If US fighters wanted to take part, they could either go to where the competitions were held or make one of their own with watered-down rules. The whole point, as I said, was to show off the full arsenal of skills with as few restrictions as possible.
China, on the other hand, is no stranger to this sort of thing - the 1911 Shanghai Open was held completely no-holds barred with no arrangements for medical treatment for injured fighters and saw people dying or getting crippled for life. Not only that, but underground fights have been a fixture in China for hundreds of years and big money changes hands in the betting - the Revolution did nothing to slow that industry down and I figured it might well do would-be underground fighters a world of good to legitimise it and bring it into the open with some semblance of medical care and the chance that they might live to see another sunrise if they fall in the ring and cause somebody to lose big betting money. Individual human life is worth very little when you have a population of almost two billion to draw from and losing an eye or the use of a limb is preferable to a slow death from starvation when just stepping into the ring wins you enough to eat well for the rest of your life.
Again, of course, I reiterate that rules divisions were planned to allow fighters of varying skill levels to compete at progressively increasing levels of risk, and the unmitigated joint destructions and eye gouges would only be allowed at the highest divisions - ultimate price for perfect value, as it were.>
Post: dojutsu:
At the risk of being seen as one of those annoying people who bring up old threads when no-one wants it, i thought this thread was a very interesting one to bring up again, especially with the few newer kung fu heads like bloodybirds n stazzy around to add their opinions on the matter (do any of the resident kung fu-ers have one?)
I was thinking that eye strikes would be TOO damaging, whether the fingers were covered or not, but finger-caps would be quite useful when it comes to the uses of clawing attacks (iv cut people with my nails nearly every time,which arent even very long when fooling around with tiger claws!)
Also i was wondering if anyone has witnessed the full-contact fights in hong kong that i hear rumours about.>
Post: bamboo:
If you start cutting people in the ring you, especially with your finger nails, it will be quickly banned as its not sanitary and puts the fighter risk of catching infectious diseases. Then the sport loses the backing of sanctioning bodies, thus a place to fight, insurance and then sponsers and money and then the sport dies.
If you can rake and scratch, then small joint manipulation has to be allowed as well for simple defense, and again, you start losing sanctioning bodies.
We need rules, if not for safety then for the cash to keep it a viable sporting option.
Frankly, if you can't hit them with a closed fist, then poking the eyes stands no chance, just my humble opinion.
-bamboo>
Post: zefff:
Oh so I guess my pit-fighting with half-armour, mixed weaponry and wild animals is a no-no too then? :roll:>
Post: bamboo:
No ,
Zefff, if your nude when you fight save the armour its cool.>
Post: zefff:
What!?!?
...hey, now there is an idea!...not for me mind! :D>
Post: dojutsu:
IM a bit confused: whos said you couldnt punch with a closed fist?
And of course I would say rules are necessary, especially when it comes to clawing techniques and such, but NOT including that, and if the "special gloves" did have something so they would not be so easily cut, could this potentially be something that could have sufficient support from sanctioning bodies?>
Post: dojutsu:
And zeff i think we've had one too many "19th weapon"s hanging out, so leave that at home 8O>
Post: bamboo:
If your fingers are capped, you can't scratch or rake, this makes the entire idea obsolete. The entire premise behind a clawing or similar technique is to rip the skin/muscle.
Capped fingers raking bare human flesh in the midst of sport competition would result in no more than a vigorous massage.
Ripping the flesh and muscle would be considered barbaric by western sporting standards, if not, then valetudo would have been a big american sport by now, instead, we have MMA in its current form.
-bamboo>
Post: dojutsu:
That does further validate all the comparisons to val tudo and "Sanda 2.0" residing mostly in "the east"
But as far as i know, the use of the claws is not JUST to tear skin and muscle, but to also make use of the qin na techniques that stem from the use of the claws. To be honest i cannot talk for pure tiger forms of kung fu, but hung gar, pak mei, and ying jow are all styles that notably use the claw to "grab" (may have to check out that hung gar one, may be wrong there to be honest :D )>
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