Chinese war sword
Original Poster: Tatsukage
Forum: Martial Arts Weapons
Posted On: 11-10-2006, 09:46
Orginal Post: Tatsukage: I've recently aquired a "chinese war sword". Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the formal name. Anywho, I was wondering if there is a "proper" way to use this weapon. I thought it might be the same as the classic chinese broadsword, but the balance is different, since it seems to be a hand-and-a-half kind of sword. The blade seems too short to use two handed though. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?
Post: Haas:
are you talking about the Gin ?>
Post: samurai6string:
Not a gin, one of these:
>
Post: Tatsukage:
http://www.kultofathena.com/images/SW647.jpg
Mine's not exactly llike this, but you'll get the idea.>
Post: zefff:
My Wing Chun teacher can use it. His is much bigger, longer handle and broader blade. It really is a scarey weapon that could chop you in half at the waist.
I havent studied it at all but the demo's Ive seen him give of it include sword like antics combined with use of the weapon almost as if it were a halberd. Like I say though Ive never taken notice because the spear is a stronger weapon than halberd and straight sword beats the broad sword IMHO so it is a weaker weapon that is disadvantaged against others.
But if you dont care for sparring then all that doesnt really matter! :)>
Post: Stazzy:
I'm not sure if I agree with you that a straight sword beats a broad sword. I think they're just different means of getting to the same place. A straight sword will strike you in a pressure point and disable your arm from moving. A broad sword will chop the arm off. :lol: If I were going to a melee war where I'd be fighting many opponents at once, I'd probably lean toward the halberd because I love the reach. It's too bad my current school doesn't teach it. :(>
Post: zefff:
Put on headguard and gauntlets then find out by sparring with wooden weapons. Its great fun! :)
Of course a weapon is powered by the exponent and I cant really use them at all as intended but I find straight sword to be harder to defend against when sparring with people who can use them. I would use it like a kriss myself.
When you mention the halberd do you mean you would prefer it over the spear? Would you not agree the spear can pierce the opponent before he can swing the halberd and the halberd cannot thrust as well as the spear?
For 'melee war' I would probably stick to long and short sword with spear myself.>
Post: WushuPadawan001:
Double-sided spear all the way for me.
Is the sword in the pictures a bagua dao (sp)?>
Post: Stazzy:
Well I was thinking that while the spear can pierce one opponent's armor, a halberd can slice the necks of five in one giant sweep. It all depends on positioning and skill level though. I'm sure either weapon could be just as effective if you find the right person to wield it. It could also be just a personal preference of mine.>
Post: Tatsukage:
So, before it gets too off topic, the only real way is watching someone else, and trial and error?>
Post: zefff:
Find a teacher. Exercise with it, drill with it, forms and spar with it. If you havent trained with weapons before, or havent for a while I would forget it and begin with a more orthadox weapon - because you will need strong and flexible hands, wrists and forearm.
Develop conditioning and timing with a lighter weapon that wont tax your body so much first.
Thats what I think anyway. There are a lot of people on here who train various weapons from different arts.>
Post: bamboo:
You need a teacher to teach you a weapon. Trial and error with a weapon could mean losing an ear, hand, etc.>
Post: Tatsukage:
Since there are no teachers around here for the sword I have, do you think that I could get the same, or at least close to, from learning the "typical" chinese broadsword? Later on maybe meld with kenjutsu or kendo?>
Post: zefff:
No. Didnt you read my post? :roll:>
Post: bamboo:
Its simply not the same thing. Perhaps this path would teach you some things and thier is always a chance you could learn something. What that something is is up for debate, but what it is not is learning how to use the weapon in question in the "proper" way.
"kenjutsu" is a generic term for any distinct school of japanese sword use, there is no "half assing" a school of kenjutsu. Kendo is a sport derived from the need to practice the techniques of the japanese sword outside of wartime as well as a way to instill national pride in japanese school children. A poorly trained kendoka will mop the floor with the vast majority of self taught practitioners.
My suggestion to you for learning these and other weapons without an experienced teacher- don't bother unless you enjoy the illusion. Wait till something comes up or until your situation allows you to move. If your truely serious, then self teaching is a grave injustice to yourself as when you finely do get a real teacher, you will spend countless days, months, years unlearning all the terrible habits you taught yourself. And you will teach yourself some terrible habits.
-bamboo>
Post: oxidee:
I am chinese.I have some idea about the blade.
The blade was invented during the Song Dynasty in china.
It's thin and broad,not heavy(<60 oz.).Two-hand useing for faster and harder choping only.
At first,it's used to destroy thick metal armours.
And when thick armours were behind the times,the blade is mostly used to destroy narrow swords,especially kanata,and execute criminal.
It's a perfect killing tool.
The only disadvantage is not easy to tote.>
Post: bamboo:
Welcome to FA.COM.
Quote: I am chineseI have some idea about the blade
I am canadian, i know nothing of backbacon, senate reform, telephone technology, labatts blue or igloos.
"Race" does not equal knowledge, only studying does that.
Thank you for the sword information. Did you formally study or is this from personal resources?
-bamboo>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Some comments about the swords Chinese style: first, the broadsword and the gin are for two entirely different purposes. From an historical basis, besides the easy id with the gin in tai chi and the broadsword in kung fu, more specifically the gin was originally a weapon for either the aristocracy of the emperor's guard or as part of the Wudang training to combat the Shaolin sword. As far as usage, the double edge of the gin is for the more subtle cutting of the wrist, neck, and other areas while moving subtlely around one's opponent in a soft type manner until striking. The Chinese broadsword was used more in actual multi opponent or war battles because one side is used for cutting as the other side is used for parrying or blocking simultaneously. As far as gin vs. broadsword, I have found it again depends upon the practitioner. I have found gin training much harder than broadsword personally because it is very hard to keep the point focused and still while moving the rest of the blade. And the cutting is much more small circle and intricate. On the other hand, the broadsword's blocking, parrying, and cutting are wonderful while both afford excellent stabbing opportunities. Old Chinese tradition: 100 days to learn the staff, 1000 days to learn the saber, 10,000 days to learn the spear.....not sure the appropriate analagous timing for the gin. Note: as I stated before, my younger brother Wushu should take advantage of John Cheng's mastery of spear and broadsword...some of the best in the world...and my younger brother Stazz would enjoy the same spear and broadsword taught by Jeff Hughes in Austin, though not as proficient as John is with the weapons.
As far as the war sword, it is an intermediary weapon between the Kwon dao, or horse cutting sword famous by General Kwan, and the Darn Dao, or broadsword. It is usually wielded by one hand in front of the other on the end piece, and is moved in both a circular (much bigger and slower circles than the darn dao during multiple cutting) and linear cut down motion at an angle to cut through armor or other weaponry. Though not a traditional 18-weapon family set, it is still very effective as armor piercing or in modern day through jackets etc. This weapon is usually reserved for higher ranked students who understand the waist, the jing, and other important long term principles of Chinese weaponry. There are very few teachers of it. In Texas, Master Kwong Ming Lee (Johnny Lee) of Mijong Lawn Horn, Ba Gua, and Wu Style fame is very proficient with this weapon, it is also a part of Ba Gua weapons training as part of "walking the eight" pattern.
Hope this helps. As far as who trains with it, if you will give me your location, I can help you with that.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=zefff My Wing Chun teacher can use it. His is much bigger, longer handle and broader blade. It really is a scarey weapon that could chop you in half at the waist.
I havent studied it at all but the demo's Ive seen him give of it include sword like antics combined with use of the weapon almost as if it were a halberd. Like I say though Ive never taken notice because the spear is a stronger weapon than halberd and straight sword beats the broad sword IMHO so it is a weaker weapon that is disadvantaged against others.
But if you dont care for sparring then all that doesnt really matter! :)[/quote
There are only weaker fighters, not weaker weapons.>
Post: zefff:
You are wrong IMHO but please tell me how you see yourself being correct.
Why are weapons developed in the first place and why do designs and construction methods change over time hmm?
Also lets imagine you are in one boat and I'm in another at sea, you have a sword, spear and long bow and I have a 300mm cannon with sights that can sppot you on the horizon - if you are the stronger fighter how will you defeat me?
All through history stronger fighters have lost to weaker enemies who happen to have superior technology and/or strategy. Even a primitive weapon like a sword can involve technology in its design as Im sure you are aware.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=zefff You are wrong IMHO but please tell me how you see yourself being correct.
Why are weapons developed in the first place and why do designs and construction methods change over time hmm?
Also lets imagine you are in one boat and I'm in another at sea, you have a sword, spear and long bow and I have a 300mm cannon with sights that can sppot you on the horizon - if you are the stronger fighter how will you defeat me?
All through history stronger fighters have lost to weaker enemies who happen to have superior technology and/or strategy. Even a primitive weapon like a sword can involve technology in its design as Im sure you are aware.[/quote
Yawn, I think this "person" made my point for me. There are no better weapons, only better fighters, unless you want to split hairs and talk about swords versus nukes. My word, this person has a lame arguement for everything. Oh and pal, being chinese doesn't mean you know alot about chinese swords. I am american, but I am not a fat slob, so spare me the racial stereotypes, or trying to use them to your advantage. LOL.>
Post: zefff:
Yes lets talk about swords vs nukes! Why do you think nukes were invented? ...Oops! Dunno why I ask because my Q's never get answered. LOL @ this baffoon and his ego! :lol:>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Sorry, has anyone seen my nuclear wessels!!!>
Post: bamboo:
Hee hee :lol:
Although corny, that was priceless BB!>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Unfortunately, Scotty is dead now so there is no beaming up!! Always preferred Worf's weapon though, it cuts deep, it cuts well, and it cuts from all angles!!! What more could ya ask for...oh yeah, the Highlander samurai sword using Chinese cuts....there can be only one!!>
Post: bamboo:
Ahem Lightsaber cough>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Too brittle....lousy color scheme...ahem...got a question for ya Bamboo: Q from the Continuum v. Darth Vader......there can be only one!! Or, better yet, the Charmed Ones....Alyssa Milano could take me down anytime....>
Post: bamboo:
You lost me on startrek. I don't know what a q is so I have to go with Darth. 8)>
Post: oxidee:
[quote=bamboo Welcome to FA.COM.
Quote: I am chineseI have some idea about the blade
I am canadian, i know nothing of backbacon, senate reform, telephone technology, labatts blue or igloos.
"Race" does not equal knowledge, only studying does that.
Thank you for the sword information. Did you formally study or is this from personal resources?
-bamboo[/quote
I'm a fancier of weapon history,not a collector or user.
I know that the blade is popular not in peace but in chaos years during the history of China,because it isn't easy tote or becoming to demonstrate.
Today, few people know how to use it even in China.
Finding a person who is adept at it out of China is VERY VERY diffcult.
I know that a(or the) master of it named HAN SHAO XIA living in JI LIN province of china.
The blade is easy to learn but diffcult to master.
If you want use it as a prideful archaic warrior in the battle field,two monthes is not a short time
If you want use it as a top hardman in top duel and sightly perform,ten years is not a long time.
If you can't find a teacher of it. If you master axe and any kind of two-hand sword,you can be teached it by yourself.
The only what mustn't be forgot is that all the hard acts are started by twisting of waist.>
Post: NathanRahl:
Oxidee, you have made some large errors, let me address them in order.
First off, the sword is never an easy art to learn. Saying it is is highly misleading. A couple of months long enough to be prepared on the battlefield, not even close.
That all actions are started by a twisting of the waist is just plain false. For proper cutting, you use the hips, the waist should actually twist as little as possible. For proper cutting you lock the stomach muscles, and use the hips, not the waist. Twisiting the waist breaks the uniformity of the body, and waists power, it doe's not create it. This is an often misconception, and you'll get it from someone who has often misunderstood instructions in written form, i.e someone who has taught themselves. Likely someone who perhaps, from thier mention of battle axes, has learned from some live action role playing troupe, or the SCA, or some other creative anachronism group.
As to your comment about axe weilders of high skill being able to teach themselves sword, nonsense. They are two totally diffeent weaopns requireing different skills, different techniques, like comparing aples to lemons actually. Basically not accurate at all. Please, if your going to post, at least know of what you speak before you do so. Good day.>
Post: oxidee:
[quote=NathanRahl Oxidee, you have made some large errors, let me address them in order.
First off, the sword is never an easy art to learn. Saying it is is highly misleading. A couple of months long enough to be prepared on the battlefield, not even close.
That all actions are started by a twisting of the waist is just plain false. For proper cutting, you use the hips, the waist should actually twist as little as possible. For proper cutting you lock the stomach muscles, and use the hips, not the waist. Twisiting the waist breaks the uniformity of the body, and waists power, it doe's not create it. This is an often misconception, and you'll get it from someone who has often misunderstood instructions in written form, i.e someone who has taught themselves. Likely someone who perhaps, from thier mention of battle axes, has learned from some live action role playing troupe, or the SCA, or some other creative anachronism group.
As to your comment about axe weilders of high skill being able to teach themselves sword, nonsense. They are two totally diffeent weaopns requireing different skills, different techniques, like comparing aples to lemons actually. Basically not accurate at all. Please, if your going to post, at least know of what you speak before you do so. Good day.[/quote
I see what you mean.
I'll explain why I have say so.
I have enjoyed the blade about ten years ago.The balance of the blade is between axe and sword,there is an great different way form useing other swords.The handle resemble very light axe more than two-hand sword.
Last time the blade was abroad used is during 1939-1943 in War II.HAN MU XIA who is HAN SHAO XIA's father,an great master,created his sample way to use the blade whice is fit common people and soldier,it can be learned in a few weeks,and he abroad spreaded the way in Chinese army,The soldiers successfully destroyed the Japanese base military officers who have background of warrior family with their kanata and Japanese veterane with their bayonet in melee battle.
so,I say it easy to learn BUT difficult to master.
HAN MU XIA's way is derived from "wu ji dao" and "ba gua dao" which is intrinsic and abroad spreaded ways of other swords.
Energizing from waist and increasing power from body's torsion and inertia is the base characteristic of Chinese way,including "wu ji dao" and "ba gua dao".
So it is the characteristic of the blade too.
Thanks for reading,goodday!>
Post: NathanRahl:
Uh huh. Well, once I understood your post I understand what you are saying. This still does not change the fact that you are mistaken.
Great master? I hardly think a great master would make such glaring mistakes in regards to the form and function of the sword.
However, the Chinese way of using the sword is rather different then the Japanese way. It is not nearly as energy efficient, and involves much more movement, i.e. wasted energy, like spins and other acrobatic nonsense.
I think you have misinterpreted a few things however. It is easy to see why you would mistake the waist with the hips. Often those who watch swordwork make the mistake of thinking it is the waist which generates the energy required, perhaps this is where you erred.
Anyhow, regardless, all the talk about easy to learn, and learning the axe aiding in learning the sword, to the ponit where you could teach yourself, is just utter nonsense, and calling someone a great master to back up your claims doe's not make them any more realistic or non-sensical. Take care.>
Post: oxidee:
[quote=NathanRahl
However, the Chinese way of using the sword is rather different then the Japanese way. It is not nearly as energy efficient, and involves much more movement, i.e. wasted energy, like spins and other acrobatic nonsense.
[/quote
Did you know where the katana and its way come from?
Did you know any thing about the history of Asia?
Did you know how many thousands ways of swords there were in China.
Did you know the differets among the swords ways of amusement,of body mechanics,of balancing mind,of one-to-one duel,of act,of useing in bettle field?
That words is so ignorant and sharp that I feel any more my word will made me foolish.
I will keep my silence.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=oxidee [quote=NathanRahl
However, the Chinese way of using the sword is rather different then the Japanese way. It is not nearly as energy efficient, and involves much more movement, i.e. wasted energy, like spins and other acrobatic nonsense.
[/quote
Did you know where the katana and its way come from?
Did you know any thing about the history of Asia?
Did you know how many thousands ways of swords there were in China.
Did you know the differets among the swords ways of amusement,of body mechanics,of balancing mind,of one-to-one duel,of act,of useing in bettle field?
That words is so ignorant and sharp that I feel any more my word will made me foolish.
I will keep my silence.[/quote
First off, the Katana came from Japan my dear. While yes, the first swords in Japan were modeled after the chinese straight swords, the Japanese improved upon its design, as they are so very good at doing, and adapted it. Soon enough they went from that to evolving the weapons into the Tachi, then the Katana.
How many ways of using the sword in china? Thats the problem, too many ways, too many differing techniques, too much complexity. The chinese art of the sword, while looking very impressive, is more suited to a gymnastic arena then combat. Too much aerial nonsense, to much spinning and twirling, this is not the way. Efficiency and simplicity, directness and determined motioned, that is the way.
Balancing mind, a good swordsman will be of no mind, the mind only gets in the way, the sword is wielded by the spirit of the wielder.
I know quite a bit about the history of Asia, was there an actual point to that particular question, or did you just wish to know if I knew a lot. Would help to be more specific.
You seem to be implying the Japanese got their combat tactics and martial prowess early on from the chinese, which is not the case at all. The Japanese evolved their own style and form of combat. Later it was indeed influence by Zen and Buddhism, which was imported from china, as was the original sword, but again, the Japanese made this their own as well. This is what the Japanese have done through their history, take something good and make it great, that is one of their gifts, the ability to adapt. This not only makes them good martial artists, but skilled at most any endeavor they put their mind to attaining.
No one is trying to make you seem or feel ignorant, hoever your words come from an obviously purely academic viewpoint, and not a very good one I am afraid. You do not speak from experience, this much is clear. and really, knowing about something but not knowing how to do it doe's not give you much credibility. This is especially true since what you do know is flawed and clearly has large gaps insofar as your knowledge on the subject itself. Names and dates may do you fine on a test, knowing this chines mastrs name, or some other obscure fact, but it's not that impressive to me.
I am sorry if I hurt your felings, not my intent, but if your going to atempt to talk with authority on a subject, then you must learn a lot more about it.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Nathan, how about another opinion? First, you are basing Chinese sword technique on the twirling, whirling, dervishes of wushu, who bastardized their sword technique during the Cultural Revolution to not be killed. Also, if you have read the Book of Five Rings, by Musashi and Japan's greatest swordsman, you will find chapters that attribute both short sword and katana technique to traditional Chinese darn dao, Kwan dao, and other weapons. Most Japanese weapons were former farming tools and not even attrituable to adaptation as sword weaponry. The so called "flowery, wasted" movements you speak of were the basis for the linear cutting of Japanese katanas....see the kwan dao or horse cutting lance techniques. As well, the straight sword, or gim, sword is much more efficient using small circle to encompass smaller circle techniques.
There are others on this site, much more adapt at Japanese weaponry, who would disagree with your posts. In addition, how do you think you get the hips to move in any empty or weapon movement? Remove the waist, and your hips are stagnant bone structures held together by tenous sinew. This is basic body mechanics. Try an experiment....walk without the connectivity of the waist to hips. I am sure you have never heard of fa jing or silk reeling concepts to propagate the use of the sword by connecting the feet to the waist/hips, to the shoulder through the elbow to the hands. Your concept of hips is neither workable or clear in either a martial arts concept or plain walking.
Oh, and I have been doing sword techniques for almost 30 years, trained in Hong Kong, been to Japan to observe Japanese sword techniques, and will tell you that what you describe is unworkable with a Japanese sword. Without fluidity, waist, hip, concentration to the tip of the sword, etc. your technique is neither Japanese or Chinese, just poor. ....By the way, if you read the "Emptiness" chapter of the Book of Five Rings, and previously the "Wind" chapter, it describes proper sword technique better than I, using Japanese theory based upon short sword regimen.
Before you attack a whole art or a whole technique, especially in a public forum, right back at you as far as voicing displeasure without disclosing experience and acumen. Have you actually fought someone using the sword? The katana is a great sword technique, but your lack of understanding of true, and traditional, Chinese sword technique should not go unchallenged.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Oh, and Nathan, the Japanaese learned to be great fighters because they had no natural resources and had to expand in order to survive. While the Chinese may have been the "weak man of Asia" 60 years ago please compare the future, both economically and militarily, between China and Japan over the next 50 years.
And since you are criticizing the other gentleman and trying to give a history lesson, you might want to study the history of the ryu systems in Okinawa, the basis for modern karate and sword in Japan, during the 15th -17th centuries. Seems like the first art propagated there, Shorin ryu, is the Japanese for Shaolin...which, if I remember, might be a Chinese derivative?! :wink: :roll:>
Post: Bloodybirds:
One last thing...an old Chinese saying: It takes 100 days to learn the staff, 1000 days to learn the sword, and 10,000 days to learn the spear...and that was when they were used for a war art! These days, I would say at least 5-10 years for a good sword technique, and over 10 years for a spear....in this day and age, where laziness and lack of true practice endure, to be proficient in either Japanese or Chinese technique can take years. And you have not even mentioned Filipino weapon technique, in which they learn the weapons first!!!>
Post: NathanRahl:
First off bloody birds let me just say that, I am glad you know some history, however your wrong about so very much.
First off, the Japanese did not have many natural resources, however to name this as the number one reason for their martial prowess, or power, would be foolish.
As far as the hips go, I am not going to get into an arguement with a novice. You know some history, and clearly have gleaned your rhetoric from many sources, and polished it quite a bit, so I won't waste too much of my time on you.
You speak with too much sureity. I teach swordsmanship, and that is my exact reason for in china at the moment. You speak like you somehow know something that I do not. Now, proper cutting technique doe's not use twiasting motions of the waist, but the knees, and the hips bloody birds. You lock your stomach muscles when cutting, smoething else in yournmprecious book of five rings that perhaps you missed ;) Please, next time you contact me, do not do it in a challenging way to get into a pissing contest with me, ok.
I am not at all concerned about the past of chinese swordsmanship, means little to me. I love how you talk about Japan as if you know it so well, yet I have lived there for a year in my early twenties, and I can tell you, your words, while sounding knowledgeable, come from reading to much and experiencing to little.
First off, the Japanese correct, did not have any natural resouces, nor did they have much contact with the outside world, with the exception of trading with the dutch. NOw to say they were so powerful simply becaue they had no natural resources, explain this please. Should not amrican be weak then since we have them opposite problem, plenty of natural resources. Your logic seems flawed to me, perhaps you can explain your reasoning, sounds like something frmo a text book, over simplified andf generalized.
As for Japanese swordsmahsip being totally based on Chinese, please. While there was some influence involved, as with the sword, it is certainly not based upon it. And stop quoting Miyamoto Musashi, makes you look like a damn stupid moon eyes novice.
You clearly know notihgn about real sword work. Do you use your sword one handed or two my dear boy. Have you callouses on your hands even? How often do you practice, and how many thousands of cuts per day. Have you mastered the continuous cut? I doubt it. Have you ben trained in anything but rhetoric, do you know anything other then simple facts and such that might get you a spot on Jeopardy.
Why is it that one every forum you have a know it al like yourself, who thinks because he knows some history and some facts that he is a master swordsman. Yes, indeed there are people on this forum know more about sword then you, and your talking to one of them.
Go back my foolish young friend, and read soem of my posts on swordwork, just sword work, and perhapsyou have already seen that I am far more knowledgeable then you. then approach me with a different attitude, and you might learn something, other then how to be an ass.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=Bloodybirds One last thing...an old Chinese saying: It takes 100 days to learn the staff, 1000 days to learn the sword, and 10,000 days to learn the spear...and that was when they were used for a war art! These days, I would say at least 5-10 years for a good sword technique, and over 10 years for a spear....in this day and age, where laziness and lack of true practice endure, to be proficient in either Japanese or Chinese technique can take years. And you have not even mentioned Filipino weapon technique, in which they learn the weapons first!!![/quote
Whoopi, your speaking in vague genralities kid. Your adversarial attitude, bombasting me with three posts at once, tells me you have soemthing to prove, so let me respond in kind, you don't know what your talking about.
As for how long it takes to learn a thing, my word, you can't put an amount of time on how long it takes to master a thing. After 25 years I am just about there. Staff a 100 days, who told you this nonsense. Where do dumb kids like you get this foolishness. Filopino stck fighting, lord how many idiots have I heard who are into that that think it is remotely similiar to the sword. And how many dumb asses who have never trained in Ni Ten Ichi Ryu who have read the book of five rings, without the proper training to porperly understand it. Seems like way too many.
5-10 years for a good sword technique, depends on the person. here we see again an idiot. You grossly generalize everything you say, yet expect, with your over simplification and generaliztion to be taken seriously. You have erred. First off, your way to focused on physical technique. Two, you talk like someone reading rightout of some crappy book. Books like to quatify things to nice round numbers, but they don't mean much in the real world. You have knowledge, but lack understanding and experience, that much is clear. Sound just like a Mcdojo owner saying "We have a five year minumum for when you can get your black belt, cause that's how long it takes ;)" LOL, you won't be taken seriously making such foolish asserations about mastery of anything.
"In this day and age, when lack of laziness and true practuice don't endure"
So you have some secret, some hidden knowledge us lazy people lack? I suppose you adhere to proper practice and routine, and are not at al lazi. Good lord, talk about a newbie to martial arts trying to sound like an expert. I doubt you truely know anything about swordsmanship kid. Your just looking for recognition, andf you wan't to knock down any long time practioner with your BS that you can to get that validation. Think I ain't seen it ebfore, hell, 15 years ago I was as stupid as you are now, good thing I learned, hope you do to.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=Bloodybirds Nathan, how about another opinion? First, you are basing Chinese sword technique on the twirling, whirling, dervishes of wushu, who bastardized their sword technique during the Cultural Revolution to not be killed. Also, if you have read the Book of Five Rings, by Musashi and Japan's greatest swordsman, you will find chapters that attribute both short sword and katana technique to traditional Chinese darn dao, Kwan dao, and other weapons. Most Japanese weapons were former farming tools and not even attrituable to adaptation as sword weaponry. The so called "flowery, wasted" movements you speak of were the basis for the linear cutting of Japanese katanas....see the kwan dao or horse cutting lance techniques. As well, the straight sword, or gim, sword is much more efficient using small circle to encompass smaller circle techniques.
There are others on this site, much more adapt at Japanese weaponry, who would disagree with your posts. In addition, how do you think you get the hips to move in any empty or weapon movement? Remove the waist, and your hips are stagnant bone structures held together by tenous sinew. This is basic body mechanics. Try an experiment....walk without the connectivity of the waist to hips. I am sure you have never heard of fa jing or silk reeling concepts to propagate the use of the sword by connecting the feet to the waist/hips, to the shoulder through the elbow to the hands. Your concept of hips is neither workable or clear in either a martial arts concept or plain walking.
Oh, and I have been doing sword techniques for almost 30 years, trained in Hong Kong, been to Japan to observe Japanese sword techniques, and will tell you that what you describe is unworkable with a Japanese sword. Without fluidity, waist, hip, concentration to the tip of the sword, etc. your technique is neither Japanese or Chinese, just poor. ....By the way, if you read the "Emptiness" chapter of the Book of Five Rings, and previously the "Wind" chapter, it describes proper sword technique better than I, using Japanese theory based upon short sword regimen.
Before you attack a whole art or a whole technique, especially in a public forum, right back at you as far as voicing displeasure without disclosing experience and acumen. Have you actually fought someone using the sword? The katana is a great sword technique, but your lack of understanding of true, and traditional, Chinese sword technique should not go unchallenged.[/quote
Nope sorry, I have to disagree with you. Youn have nt been doing Japanese swordsmanship for 30 years, nor have you been to Japan, trust me, I can tell.
As for the hips thing again. You lock your waist, shoulders, hips, feet, move in conformity with each other. Yuo must be a straight line my boy. To say that the is zero movement, well no, it waist is a joint, thats not possible, however it is kept to a minimum.
No, you have never studied anywhere, and you don't have 30 years. You talk like a kid, act like a kid, and the number of years you "say" you have practiced is conveniently more then mine, not that that means much, but to a dunmb newbie to the art, you'd think it doe's. Ah, the anonymity of the net. At most your some empty hand guy who thinks sword is cool, has taken some kendo, and thinks he's a bad ass with a sword. That you know some history telle me you use it to fill in what you lack in knowledge about the sword. yeah, real impressive, unless you been around a while and seen all the bullshit before.
You travel, then come to Yuncheng China on your next vacation, I'll be living here teaching till July of next year my wonderously skilled friend. We will se just how skilled you are. If your the world traveler you claim to be, you'll come on down.
God I hate stpid newbies trying to prove something, or dumb old men who can't help but feel envy, and try and bring you down on some dumb forum, cause they could not do it on a battlefield.>
Post: angryrocker4:
You have a superiority complex. I'm actually laughing at your impotence. If you're making challenges, you should know the custom is that you pay all expenses and its of a place and time of the other's choosing. That's the tradition. I feel though, that by your slow revelations of your ineptitude, no one here would be willing to waste their time.
I feel like a cat playing with an injured mouse. Thanks for amusing me with your feebleness.
Edit: I forgot to add that you're a hypocritical liar. You keep saying you're going to leave, but never do. You call someone out for something and then immediately commit the same act. It's like the mouse is now chewing through an artery to save it's life. Amusing.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Nathan, first you know nothing about me. Second, you have no clue as to my standing in the Chinese martial arts. Third, my masters Leung Shum, Ricky Anderson, Jeff Bolt, and Dr. Yang Jwing Ming have more sword experience in their pinky than you have in your so called Japanese eye. By the way, if the Chinese sword is so terrible, why are you in China you dumb shit!!! As far as spending 30 years cutting, not only is that bullshit but you have still not answered the question.....who are your teachers, how long have you studied with them, and are you even a senior of any of them? As far as being a true martial artist, if you were your humility would be showing through and you would not continue to denigrate those who challenge your experience and your audacity. For your info, my teachers are Leung Shum, grandmaster of Ying Jow Pai Eagle claw with 64 years experience in NYC, his teacher Ng Wei who had 81 YEARS WHEN HE DIED IN HONG KONG IN 1991, Grandmaster Ricky Anderson with 40 years experience, including age 3-15 growing up in the Wudan temple for 12 years every day training in true Shaolin from Abbot Wang Fui Yen, and Master Jeff Bolt, senior student for 34 years of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming of Boston, 45 years of training with 36 books and 48 schools worldwide. I have trained for just over 28 years, including two years in Hong Kong every day 8-12 hours a day without a break, have endured true Shaolin training under continuous threat of death during training from my seniors and my master for 7 years, competed all over the world including Asia in full contact matches fighting one's style with no pads, and am now a national judge at both open karate and Chinese martial arts tournaments nationwide.
As far as swords, and your training, by your words, your pompous arrogance, and your assumptions about people here, I will leave it to Japanese practitioners like Samurai and others to testify to the veracity of your true Japanese skills. But, you certainly carry the former arrogance of the Japanese imperialists very well....that much I grant you. Now, be gone with you and your stupid and inane assumptions about others. By the way, UNTIL YOU LIST OR MENTION YOUR TEACHER/TEACHERS, YOUR SCHOOLS, AND YOUR JAPANESE HERITAGE RIGHTS, STOP THINKING YOUR PUERILE REJOINDERS ARE LISTENED TO BY ANY SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTIST ON THIS SITE. I NEVER SEE YOUR MASTERS MENTIONED ANYWHERE, AND I AM SURE VIDEOS ARE PRETTY CHEAP TO STUDY WHERE YOU ARE, SINCE THEY ARE PROBABLY PIRATED IN ANY EVENT. SORRY, BUTTHOLE, BUT YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THE SEVEN SAMURAI, TOSHIRO MIFUNE, JOSHIRO KANE, MUSASHI, OR ANY OF THE REAL JAPANESE SWORDSMAN...YOU DISHONOR THEIR MEMORY AND THEIR SKILL.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=Bloodybirds Nathan, first you know nothing about me. Second, you have no clue as to my standing in the Chinese martial arts. Third, my masters Leung Shum, Ricky Anderson, Jeff Bolt, and Dr. Yang Jwing Ming have more sword experience in their pinky than you have in your so called Japanese eye. By the way, if the Chinese sword is so terrible, why are you in China you dumb shit!!! As far as spending 30 years cutting, not only is that bullshit but you have still not answered the question.....who are your teachers, how long have you studied with them, and are you even a senior of any of them? As far as being a true martial artist, if you were your humility would be showing through and you would not continue to denigrate those who challenge your experience and your audacity. For your info, my teachers are Leung Shum, grandmaster of Ying Jow Pai Eagle claw with 64 years experience in NYC, his teacher Ng Wei who had 81 YEARS WHEN HE DIED IN HONG KONG IN 1991, Grandmaster Ricky Anderson with 40 years experience, including age 3-15 growing up in the Wudan temple for 12 years every day training in true Shaolin from Abbot Wang Fui Yen, and Master Jeff Bolt, senior student for 34 years of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming of Boston, 45 years of training with 36 books and 48 schools worldwide. I have trained for just over 28 years, including two years in Hong Kong every day 8-12 hours a day without a break, have endured true Shaolin training under continuous threat of death during training from my seniors and my master for 7 years, competed all over the world including Asia in full contact matches fighting one's style with no pads, and am now a national judge at both open karate and Chinese martial arts tournaments nationwide.
As far as swords, and your training, by your words, your pompous arrogance, and your assumptions about people here, I will leave it to Japanese practitioners like Samurai and others to testify to the veracity of your true Japanese skills. But, you certainly carry the former arrogance of the Japanese imperialists very well....that much I grant you. Now, be gone with you and your stupid and inane assumptions about others. By the way, UNTIL YOU LIST OR MENTION YOUR TEACHER/TEACHERS, YOUR SCHOOLS, AND YOUR JAPANESE HERITAGE RIGHTS, STOP THINKING YOUR PUERILE REJOINDERS ARE LISTENED TO BY ANY SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTIST ON THIS SITE. I NEVER SEE YOUR MASTERS MENTIONED ANYWHERE, AND I AM SURE VIDEOS ARE PRETTY CHEAP TO STUDY WHERE YOU ARE, SINCE THEY ARE PROBABLY PIRATED IN ANY EVENT. SORRY, BUTTHOLE, BUT YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THE SEVEN SAMURAI, TOSHIRO MIFUNE, JOSHIRO KANE, MUSASHI, OR ANY OF THE REAL JAPANESE SWORDSMAN...YOU DISHONOR THEIR MEMORY AND THEIR SKILL.[/quote
Ah, the sutpidity of youth, and you could not answer any of my questions I see. And I have not been practicing for 30 years, but 25. As for my teachers, I had a teacher. That was a long while back. Yeah, he was an old guy, but not Methusila old like all the names you pardaded in frnot of me. You saw a guy who had jsut joined and run afoul of a miod, so yuo thought to use me to heighten your own snese of superiority, sorry to dissappoint you kiddo. I don't here anyone backing you up, just the same one person trashing me who has ben since I joined, and they are only worth ignoring.
I don't practice a style anymore, you should follow my posts more kid. I am also just as sure you know about as much about styleless practioners as my pinky can hold, which is nt much. As for your aged teachers, I would be happy to fight any of them if they want, but I don't really care to be honest either way.
As for the chiense sword, you said yourself you have little respect for it in it's current form. You were the one going on and on about Japanese sword, and how great it is, and howe Current chinese sword is a "Bastardization". By your own words I should not have much respect for it. as for why I am here, none of your business, though I am not teaching chinese sword, but I am teaching at a new pilot school, and make a good living doing it. HOw narrow minded you are, to think every school in China is teaching chinese. Like saying everything in American is teaching "American". How bout you kid, and foreign investors bank on you to help open up a school in Asia? I did not think so, so honestly, you should not be so hasty to insult people online.
My purile rejoinders, listened to by any serious martial artists. LOL, if they have to go on and on about some fillial heritage to prove their skill, then they arean't worth much if you ask me. That kind of thing is pure baggage. Adhering to a style locks you into it's teachins, forms, movements, makes you unable to truly adapt in combat. You should study a work by Bruce Lee titled Jeet Kune Do, any matial artist with half a brain has read it. Systems bad, no style good. Consequently, most I alk to have never read it, some have never even heard of it. Sad, I know, have you read it? I doubt it.
And kid, the way you rant it is clear you are just that, a kid. I am guessing early 20's, maybe younger, teen's perhaps. Other then trashing me, which is going unchallenged here, whoopi, thats the only thing your doing that is protecting you enough to not be challenged by others for your obvious falsehoods.
Oh and kid, enough with the all in capital letters already, that's just rude, and also against forum policy anywhere I have ever been. Since the forum mods seem fit to ignore such thigns, I will warn you, no one likes it when you post all in caps.
I know your mad that I called you on your obvious lies, first your this, now your that, Japanese swordsman to Kung fu guy, nifty transformation. If you'd like to talk, I can give you my number in china, though it's an international call. I am sure the sound of your voice alone would tell me your age ;) No hard feelings kid, your nothing new to me. A fool in a long line of fools, who has made the mistake of joining and adhering nto a system, getting caught up in things like heritage, forms, the system itself, useless facts and trivia, the ego of it all, without actually caring so much about the requisite skill. All a nice, fancy, beauitful dance with your opponent, that will never end, but go on and on and on. Leave all that behind kid, I stopped parrotting all that nonsense about my clan and heritage and all that other bunk years ago when I gave up styles in general. Sad your so jaded and cynical you can't or won't except that someone would do that. Your just to caught up in it all I think, a shame.
Sme idiot said I should pay for a plane ticket for you to come here. LOL, if I gave a shit I would, but I don't. Anyhow you have to go to school anyway, isn't that right? Whatever son. No superiority complenx here, I ain't the one talking about how much experience my teachers have, my this and that, all that dumb shit, and it is dumb shit, meaningless. The meaningless minutae of martial arts today, too much tradtion, to much systemization, you really need to get your head out of your arse and study more kid. And stop being so threatened, your ego is so weak that you'll never learn anything at this rate. Good bye ;)
Oh and P.S. you know nothing about me either, but you made a lot more dismisive statemnts, and insulting ones, not to mention just plain obviously false ones in regard to my knowledge, so fair is fair pal ;)>
Post: angryrocker4:
You ignore me cause you are simply too inept to answer. I am not trashing anyone, but pointing out truth which you are too frightened to face. Everyone here backs bloodybirds. You go against the basics of what you supposedly master, without being aware. You gave enough of a shit to make the challenge, man up you prick, and I said a place of the other's choosing, not your home ground in china. But your fearfulness would keep you from doing so either way.
Once again you prove all my previous points, I only continue because a few others may find my pestering you amusing.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=angryrocker4 You ignore me cause you are simply too inept to answer. I am not trashing anyone, but pointing out truth which you are too frightened to face. Everyone here backs bloodybirds. You go against the basics of what you supposedly master, without being aware. You gave enough of a shit to make the challenge, man up you prick, and I said a place of the other's choosing, not your home ground in china. But your fearfulness would keep you from doing so either way.
Once again you prove all my previous points, I only continue because a few others may find my pestering you amusing.[/quote
Who heree has a superiority complex, you speak for the whole of the world now. Oh yes, just this forum. I only see you backing bloody birds, and only because bloody bird is against me, not because this person is valid. Even you are not so stupid as t miss the clear signs that this person is not who they say they are. Your not that dumb, are you angry rocker? Guess you are. Ok, bye again then, thought you were smarter, now I can ignore you in peace ;)>
Post: angryrocker4:
Oh no, he is perfectly valid and I have used his resources and knowledge before. You on the other hand, have very contradictory "knowledge" and behaviour for what you profess.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
I am 48 years old, been training for over 30 years, and stop calling me kid!! Again, never claimed Japanese heritage, I said that I do not like modern wushu sword technique as I practice TRADITIONAL swords not the ones with acrobatics, and learn to spell, use grammar, and show a modicum of intelligence on this forum. Please provide your international number to us on the forum and that way we can all conference in.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
And, NB, Staz, and WushuPadawon are all younger brothers of mine in the art, others on this site consider me one of the most knowledgeable Chinese practitioners, and if you want, will be more than happy for you to speak to my Shaolin master and have him answer your challenge, since at 43, and a true Shaolin, will be more than happy to answer your challenge and your questions. My master here has forgotten more than you will ever learn, and my 71 year old grandmaster in New York just needs to move with you. In any event, I am done with your lies, your innuendos, etc. Put up or shut up....give us your lineage, your art, or excuse me your jeet kune do like practice, or SHUT UP!! There, is that too rude for ya!!>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=Bloodybirds Nathan, how about another opinion? First, you are basing Chinese sword technique on the twirling, whirling, dervishes of wushu, who bastardized their sword technique during the Cultural Revolution to not be killed. Also, if you have read the Book of Five Rings, by Musashi and Japan's greatest swordsman, you will find chapters that attribute both short sword and katana technique to traditional Chinese darn dao, Kwan dao, and other weapons.
!!!!!!!!!!!Funny, you must be reading the abridged version
Most Japanese weapons were former farming tools and not even attrituable to adaptation as sword weaponry.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Whats your point, this is common knowledge.
The so called "flowery, wasted" movements you speak of were the basis for the linear cutting of Japanese katanas....see the kwan dao or horse cutting lance techniques. As well, the straight sword, or gim, sword is much more efficient using small circle to encompass smaller circle techniques.
!!!!!!!!!!!Actually thats only partly true, a curved blade is more suited to circular movements, not a straight one, and the gim is more for stabbing then cutting, me thinks your thinking of the chinese broadsword, if your thinking at all that is.
There are others on this site, much more adapt at Japanese weaponry, who would disagree with your posts.
!!!!!!!!!!!!I would welcome hearing from them, they atleast would likely be more civil in their responses. While I replied to oxidee with some vitrol, it was not nearly as much as your reply to me, and your attitude was clearly a negative one. Also, I apologized to oxidee if I hurt her feelings. To you, no way.
In addition, how do you think you get the hips to move in any empty or weapon movement?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That's simple sherlock, that what the knee's and the rest of the leg are there for. If you read musashi again, you will see him speak of a floating feleing in your toes, this is the pivot as you turn into your cut to use your whole body as one. You do not break the connection between your hips and shoulders and feet, you use them all together as one. Honestly, you think cause you read a book you know something. Thats why I asked my questions. Spouting off some real, or more likely made up heritage, means nothing, answering questions only a practicing swordsman could know from years of practice, that has meaning. That's why I don't care about the "heritage" of others, I am much more concenred about the knowledge and understanding. Shows what your concerned about, which is why you don't know very much about how to use a sword I guess, wrong concerns. You should have memorized proper sword technique, and not what some old dude told you, or what you "think" some book said. Without understanding it's easy to misinterpret, as you have clearly shown ;)
Remove the waist, and your hips are stagnant bone structures held together by tenous sinew. This is basic body mechanics. Try an experiment....walk without the connectivity of the waist to hips.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Of course they are connected, nothing I can do to change that. Stagnant, how so Doctor. I have my heels, my toes, my hips, which do actually bend to some degree if you had not noticed, and of course my knees. Then there are my arms, the totality of my whole body. You know, it's sad when your right, but people won't acknowledge it, some just because they don't like you and don't want to give you props, others just because their egos are at stake.
I am sure you have never heard of fa jing or silk reeling concepts to propagate the use of the sword by connecting the feet to the waist/hips, to the shoulder through the elbow to the hands. Your concept of hips is neither workable or clear in either a martial arts concept or plain walking.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Really, I walk all the time and my upper body stays in line with my lower, no twisting from left to right. Are you perhaps a hunch back, have a tisted spine maybe?
Oh, and I have been doing sword techniques for almost 30 years, trained in Hong Kong, been to Japan to observe Japanese sword techniques, and will tell you that what you describe is unworkable with a Japanese sword.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You've been to Honk Kong, and Japan, really, how long did you stay, more then a month? You were a tourist I take it? Where did you stay, I stayed in Kyodo, how bout you. What dojo did you study at?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You been studying that long, and your talking like a moon eyed student, who's "bro" is learning knife, and your learning staff now, and twirling around a broom stick, I don't think so.
Without fluidity, waist, hip, concentration to the tip of the sword, etc. your technique is neither Japanese or Chinese, just poor
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Is that a fact, hmm, interesting. I wonder how my sword cuts anything at all then. Concentration to the tip, are you sure thats where you should be concentrating, wel, if you say so. 30 years after all. Wait a sec, how can you have practiced for 30 if your only 20. Well, I guess you'll work that math out later. And of course you will never answer my questions, though I just answered a bunch of yours. Oh, but thats right, you want to focus on things that are not relevant to actually using the swqord, cause if you focused on things that actually spoke to your knowledge, as I just have, you would fail. I see, good show ;)
. ....By the way, if you read the "Emptiness" chapter of the Book of Five Rings, and previously the "Wind" chapter, it describes proper sword technique better than I, using Japanese theory based upon short sword regimen.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Actually if you read Musashi a little better you would know that he doe's not advocate using the long sword in any way like the short sword, you got a lot to learn kiddo.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Fluidity comes from using the body as a whole, not as seperate pieces, a real swordsman would know this.
Before you attack a whole art or a whole technique, especially in a public forum, right back at you as far as voicing displeasure without disclosing experience and acumen. Have you actually fought someone using the sword?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yes I have, live blade experience as well as a lifetime of hardwood sparring. Have you ever fought someone with steel, umm, no, I don't think you have.
The katana is a great sword technique, but your lack of understanding of true, and traditional, Chinese sword technique should not go unchallenged.[/quote
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I don't lack understanding of how to use the sword, but clearly you do, i.e. not knownig that the whole body is to be used as one, not seperately. As for the chinese sword, know all about it, it's just a different point of view, still sword, but the philsophy is a little different. You should learn about it some time.>
Post: angryrocker4:
Wrong. It is not the same except for the fact the sharp side goes into the other man.>
Post: angryrocker4:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Learn to use the quote system correctly.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Duh.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Nathan, I only started the vitioral when I saw you criticize Chinese sword techniques, without any back up and obviously referring to wushu. As far as starting this, you did so but I will defend my honor, my masters, and my respect, as would you. Frankly, I am tired of this discussion. Good luck being the resident expert in China...I am sure we will soon hear and marvel about your reputation and your skill in China and you will soon be named one of the Treasures of the Middle Kingdom. Until then, good luck!! Oh, by the way, meant no insult in asking for your lineage and your masters.....that is a Chinese tradition when first meeting another martial artist of Chinese practice! As a result, I listed my lineage and practice as a way of paying my initial respects. I know you mean kid as a derogatory term, and even after 30 years of practice, yes I do still consider myself a kid in the presence of my three masters, and that is the fun!!! Your comments will not deter me from my lifelong training...oh, by the way yes I have fought steel against steel in Hong Kong, staff against staff in class and out, and have lived in Texas, New York, Hong Kong, London, etc. I am also a senior consultant with an MBA and other passions but none surpass my love of the art. Those who know me will vouch for this. And, as far as sacrifice to the art, I lost my first wife and kids to the practice of the art and she was Asian!!! One day she said to me, "why not go and f.... your master, you are with him more than you are with me!" My eagle claw brother, shaolin master, eagle master, and my master currently will all tell you of my dedication to my kung fu and my tai chi. As you claim I do not know you, you do not know me. As such, and on a forum like this, I come here to trade ideas, comments, questions, and learning with others on this forum who may have expertise where I do not. If you had come to this forum, and just told us about your knowledge, your experience, and your background, and with humility and respect to others, I would give you the same as others......all I ask is that the respect is recipricated with the other members here. IF you have something valuable to pass on to the rest of us, do so with respect and humility and you will find I will probably end up pumping you with many questions so I can learn another viewpoint.
I am sure the others here would feel the same way. If not, why did you come to the forum in the first place? Surely you know, if you are as high ranked and skilled as you claim, that your comments here will indicate the level of expertise or knowledge. Most here are here to seek knowledge, not exchange insults or hatred....we get that every day....LOL...martial arts should be a brotherhood where we pass on to each other our knowledge to improve all of us. I do not care what style you are, but what is in your heart and mind.
Nathan, I think you will find that if we take a different approach here, we can all compromise and learn. Well, gotta go cook dinner for the family.
Angry, Samurai, etc, have a good evening.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote="Bloodybirds" Nathan, I only started the vitioral when I saw you criticize Chinese sword techniques, without any back up and obviously referring to wushu. As far as starting this, you did so but I will defend my honor, my masters, and my respect, as would you. Frankly, I am tired of this discussion. Good luck being the resident expert in China...I am sure we will soon hear and marvel about your reputation and your skill in China and you will soon be named one of the Treasures of the Middle Kingdom. Until then, good luck!! Oh, by the way, meant no insult in asking for your lineage and your masters.....that is a Chinese tradition when first meeting another martial artist of Chinese practice! As a result, I listed my lineage and practice as a way of paying my initial respects. I know you mean kid as a derogatory term, and even after 30 years of practice, yes I do still consider myself a kid in the presence of my three masters, and that is the fun!!! Your comments will not deter me from my lifelong training...oh, by the way yes I have fought steel against steel in Hong Kong, staff against staff in class and out, and have lived in Texas, New York, Hong Kong, London, etc. I am also a senior consultant with an MBA and other passions but none surpass my love of the art. Those who know me will vouch for this. And, as far as sacrifice to the art, I lost my first wife and kids to the practice of the art and she was Asian!!! One day she said to me, "why not go and f.... your master, you are with him more than you are with me!" My eagle claw brother, shaolin master, eagle master, and my master currently will all tell you of my dedication to my kung fu and my tai chi. As you claim I do not know you, you do not know me. As such, and on a forum like this, I come here to trade ideas, comments, questions, and learning with others on this forum who may have expertise where I do not. If you had come to this forum, and just told us about your knowledge, your experience, and your background, and with humility and respect to others, I would give you the same as others
!!!!!!!!!I highly doubt that, I don't speak of those things because I practice no style, and that is the common practice of those who do, lave behind any linege, it's just baggage and an education in ignorance to us. You would not of course know anything about that, since you just assumed I was obfuscating.
[quote="Bloodybirds" ......all I ask is that the respect is recipricated with the other members here. IF you have something valuable to pass on to the rest of us, do so with respect and humility and you will find I will probably end up pumping you with many questions so I can learn another viewpoint.
!!!!I have seen no evidence of that. Al I ave seen are bruiosed and battered egos, a lifetime of subjection to tradtional systemized arts that leaves one bruised and bloodied, hypersenitive and polarized to the viewpoints of others.
[quote="Bloodybirds" I am sure the others here would feel the same way. If not, why did you come to the forum in the first place? Surely you know, if you are as high ranked and skilled as you claim, that your comments here will indicate the level of expertise or knowledge.
Clearly that is not true, clearly my heritage and my linegae indicate that, as you placed total emphasis on that, and next to zero on knowledge, understanding and skill, that did not agree with yours of course. Yuor own words showed you held little regard for my knowledge or expertise, you can not claim now that that is important to you after you harped on my lineage, or lack thereof, for so long. Even the other members here can not miss that contradiction that you have just made.
[quote="Bloodybirds' Most here are here to seek knowledge, not exchange insults or hatred....we get that every day
Really, then why exchange insults with me, or insult me at all to begin with, oh yes, because you felt your ego had been attacked when I spoke of Chinese arts, of course, my bad.
[quote="Bloodybirds"LOL martial arts should be a brotherhood where we pass on to each other our knowledge to improve all of us. I do not care what style you are, but what is in your heart and mind.
If so, your the worst brother I have ever had, approaching me with an adversarial attitude doesn't help. Lets face it, you choose to get into a pissing contest, don't blame me for the outcome, you were there to buddy. You want brothers, don't get into fights with them, and don't challenge their credibility just because they don't want to share their life story with you. I mean hell, who are you. You ain't my brother, I don't know you from Adam, and my ego doesn't need the kind of validation where I spew my guts to a total stranger just to get it. You figuring my viewpoint out yet pal, or you just more concerned with getting what you want then respecting the rights and choices of others?
[quote="Bloodybirds" Nathan, I think you will find that if we take a different approach here, we can all compromise and learn.
Compromise, I id not see any of that from you. You just kept pressing and pressing, aggravating the situation even worse. You clearly care more about lineage based fillial ties then actual skill, knowledge, understanding, one of many reason I left that stuff behind. When you do hat, it's means gone brilliant one, and the more you try and pressure me, the more I just ignore you. Your not my friend, buddy, or pal, and frankl;y, after all your BS, I wish to be neither. You can not spew all your crap, then, once you've vented, hich you clearly were doing, hve a hard life do you? You can't then just say "Lets be friends" gimmie a break, no interest.
[quote=Bloodybirds Well, gotta go cook dinner for the family.
Angry, Samurai, etc, have a good evening.[/quote >
Post: NathanRahl:
Nathan, I only started the vitioral when I saw you criticize Chinese sword techniques, without any back up and obviously referring to wushu. As far as starting this, you did so but I will defend my honor, my masters, and my respect, as would you. Frankly, I am tired of this discussion. Good luck being the resident expert in China...I am sure we will soon hear and marvel about your reputation and your skill in China and you will soon be named one of the Treasures of the Middle Kingdom. Until then, good luck!! Oh, by the way, meant no insult in asking for your lineage and your masters.....that is a Chinese tradition when first meeting another martial artist of Chinese practice! As a result, I listed my lineage and practice as a way of paying my initial respects. I know you mean kid as a derogatory term, and even after 30 years of practice, yes I do still consider myself a kid in the presence of my three masters, and that is the fun!!! Your comments will not deter me from my lifelong training...oh, by the way yes I have fought steel against steel in Hong Kong, staff against staff in class and out, and have lived in Texas, New York, Hong Kong, London, etc. I am also a senior consultant with an MBA and other passions but none surpass my love of the art. Those who know me will vouch for this. And, as far as sacrifice to the art, I lost my first wife and kids to the practice of the art and she was Asian!!! One day she said to me, "why not go and f.... your master, you are with him more than you are with me!" My eagle claw brother, shaolin master, eagle master, and my master currently will all tell you of my dedication to my kung fu and my tai chi. As you claim I do not know you, you do not know me. As such, and on a forum like this, I come here to trade ideas, comments, questions, and learning with others on this forum who may have expertise where I do not. If you had come to this forum, and just told us about your knowledge, your experience, and your background, and with humility and respect to others, I would give you the same as others [/quote
!!!!!!!!!I highly doubt that, I don't speak of those things because I practice no style, and that is the common practice of those who do, lave behind any linege, it's just baggage and an education in ignorance to us. You would not of course know anything about that, since you just assumed I was obfuscating.
[quote="Bloodybirds" ......all I ask is that the respect is recipricated with the other members here. IF you have something valuable to pass on to the rest of us, do so with respect and humility and you will find I will probably end up pumping you with many questions so I can learn another viewpoint.
!!!!I have seen no evidence of that. Al I ave seen are bruiosed and battered egos, a lifetime of subjection to tradtional systemized arts that leaves one bruised and bloodied, hypersenitive and polarized to the viewpoints of others.
[quote="Bloodybirds" I am sure the others here would feel the same way. If not, why did you come to the forum in the first place? Surely you know, if you are as high ranked and skilled as you claim, that your comments here will indicate the level of expertise or knowledge.
Clearly that is not true, clearly my heritage and my linegae indicate that, as you placed total emphasis on that, and next to zero on knowledge, understanding and skill, that did not agree with yours of course. Yuor own words showed you held little regard for my knowledge or expertise, you can not claim now that that is important to you after you harped on my lineage, or lack thereof, for so long. Even the other members here can not miss that contradiction that you have just made.
[quote="Bloodybirds' Most here are here to seek knowledge, not exchange insults or hatred....we get that every day
Really, then why exchange insults with me, or insult me at all to begin with, oh yes, because you felt your ego had been attacked when I spoke of Chinese arts, of course, my bad.
[quote="Bloodybirds"LOL martial arts should be a brotherhood where we pass on to each other our knowledge to improve all of us. I do not care what style you are, but what is in your heart and mind.
If so, your the worst brother I have ever had, approaching me with an adversarial attitude doesn't help. Lets face it, you choose to get into a pissing contest, don't blame me for the outcome, you were there to buddy. You want brothers, don't get into fights with them, and don't challenge their credibility just because they don't want to share their life story with you. I mean hell, who are you. You ain't my brother, I don't know you from Adam, and my ego doesn't need the kind of validation where I spew my guts to a total stranger just to get it. You figuring my viewpoint out yet pal, or you just more concerned with getting what you want then respecting the rights and choices of others?
[quote="Bloodybirds" Nathan, I think you will find that if we take a different approach here, we can all compromise and learn.
Compromise, I id not see any of that from you. You just kept pressing and pressing, aggravating the situation even worse. You clearly care more about lineage based fillial ties then actual skill, knowledge, understanding, one of many reason I left that stuff behind. When you do hat, it's means gone brilliant one, and the more you try and pressure me, the more I just ignore you. Your not my friend, buddy, or pal, and frankl;y, after all your BS, I wish to be neither. You can not spew all your crap, then, once you've vented, hich you clearly were doing, hve a hard life do you? You can't then just say "Lets be friends" gimmie a break, no interest.
[quote=Bloodybirds Well, gotta go cook dinner for the family.
Angry, Samurai, etc, have a good evening.[/quote >
Post: NathanRahl:
Nathan, I only started the vitioral when I saw you criticize Chinese sword techniques, without any back up and obviously referring to wushu. As far as starting this, you did so but I will defend my honor, my masters, and my respect, as would you. Frankly, I am tired of this discussion. Good luck being the resident expert in China...I am sure we will soon hear and marvel about your reputation and your skill in China and you will soon be named one of the Treasures of the Middle Kingdom. Until then, good luck!! Oh, by the way, meant no insult in asking for your lineage and your masters.....that is a Chinese tradition when first meeting another martial artist of Chinese practice! As a result, I listed my lineage and practice as a way of paying my initial respects. I know you mean kid as a derogatory term, and even after 30 years of practice, yes I do still consider myself a kid in the presence of my three masters, and that is the fun!!! Your comments will not deter me from my lifelong training...oh, by the way yes I have fought steel against steel in Hong Kong, staff against staff in class and out, and have lived in Texas, New York, Hong Kong, London, etc. I am also a senior consultant with an MBA and other passions but none surpass my love of the art. Those who know me will vouch for this. And, as far as sacrifice to the art, I lost my first wife and kids to the practice of the art and she was Asian!!! One day she said to me, "why not go and f.... your master, you are with him more than you are with me!" My eagle claw brother, shaolin master, eagle master, and my master currently will all tell you of my dedication to my kung fu and my tai chi. As you claim I do not know you, you do not know me. As such, and on a forum like this, I come here to trade ideas, comments, questions, and learning with others on this forum who may have expertise where I do not. If you had come to this forum, and just told us about your knowledge, your experience, and your background, and with humility and respect to others, I would give you the same as others
!!!!!!!!!I highly doubt that, I don't speak of those things because I practice no style, and that is the common practice of those who do, lave behind any linege, it's just baggage and an education in ignorance to us. You would not of course know anything about that, since you just assumed I was obfuscating.
......all I ask is that the respect is recipricated with the other members here. IF you have something valuable to pass on to the rest of us, do so with respect and humility and you will find I will probably end up pumping you with many questions so I can learn another viewpoint.
!!!!I have seen no evidence of that. Al I ave seen are bruiosed and battered egos, a lifetime of subjection to tradtional systemized arts that leaves one bruised and bloodied, hypersenitive and polarized to the viewpoints of others.
I am sure the others here would feel the same way. If not, why did you come to the forum in the first place? Surely you know, if you are as high ranked and skilled as you claim, that your comments here will indicate the level of expertise or knowledge.
!!!!!!!!!!Clearly that is not true, clearly my heritage and my linegae indicate that, as you placed total emphasis on that, and next to zero on knowledge, understanding and skill, that did not agree with yours of course. Yuor own words showed you held little regard for my knowledge or expertise, you can not claim now that that is important to you after you harped on my lineage, or lack thereof, for so long. Even the other members here can not miss that contradiction that you have just made.
Most here are here to seek knowledge, not exchange insults or hatred....we get that every day
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Really, then why exchange insults with me, or insult me at all to begin with, oh yes, because you felt your ego had been attacked when I spoke of Chinese arts, of course, my bad.
LOL martial arts should be a brotherhood where we pass on to each other our knowledge to improve all of us. I do not care what style you are, but what is in your heart and mind.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If so, your the worst brother I have ever had, approaching me with an adversarial attitude doesn't help. Lets face it, you choose to get into a pissing contest, don't blame me for the outcome, you were there to buddy. You want brothers, don't get into fights with them, and don't challenge their credibility just because they don't want to share their life story with you. I mean hell, who are you. You ain't my brother, I don't know you from Adam, and my ego doesn't need the kind of validation where I spew my guts to a total stranger just to get it. You figuring my viewpoint out yet pal, or you just more concerned with getting what you want then respecting the rights and choices of others?
Nathan, I think you will find that if we take a different approach here, we can all compromise and learn.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Compromise, I did not see any of that from you. You just kept pressing and pressing, aggravating the situation even worse. You clearly care more about lineage based fillial ties then actual skill, knowledge, understanding, one of many reason I left that stuff behind. When you do hat, it's means gone brilliant one, and the more you try and pressure me, the more I just ignore you. Your not my friend, buddy, or pal, and frankl;y, after all your BS, I wish to be neither. You can not spew all your crap, then, once you've vented, hich you clearly were doing, hve a hard life do you? You can't then just say "Lets be friends" gimmie a break, no interest.
Well, gotta go cook dinner for the family.
!!!!!!!!!Bloodybirds, if you truely are a practioner of so many years, your quite immature. Broomsticks and all that, harping on minuate and whining like a 12 year old till you got your way. I don't buy any of it. You want brotherhood, work on acting instead of reacting, yuo might fnid more then the handful of people who seem to post here actually sticking around, and then more then a handful would actually post here.
Angry, Samurai, etc, have a good evening.[/quote >
Post: angryrocker4:
Another of my points is proven, he attempted to end it and you refused.>
Post: NathanRahl:
[quote=angryrocker4 Another of my points is proven, he attempted to end it and you refused.[/quote
I didn't see any attempt to end anything, and I did end it, I consider it ended, I don't see your point. Anyhow, I can see feeding you only makes you stronger, so I will never speak with you again.>
Post: angryrocker4:
Yet you keep pming me. You only see what you wish and hear what you want. It doesnt matter what anyone says to you. I dont really need to say more as each time you write you prove my case.>
Post: oxidee:
[quote=NathanRahl [quote=oxidee [quote=NathanRahl
However, the Chinese way of using the sword is rather different then the Japanese way. It is not nearly as energy efficient, and involves much more movement, i.e. wasted energy, like spins and other acrobatic nonsense.
[/quote
Did you know where the katana and its way come from?
Did you know any thing about the history of Asia?
Did you know how many thousands ways of swords there were in China.
Did you know the differets among the swords ways of amusement,of body mechanics,of balancing mind,of one-to-one duel,of act,of useing in bettle field?
That words is so ignorant and sharp that I feel any more my word will made me foolish.
I will keep my silence.[/quote
First off, the Katana came from Japan my dear. While yes, the first swords in Japan were modeled after the chinese straight swords, the Japanese improved upon its design, as they are so very good at doing, and adapted it. Soon enough they went from that to evolving the weapons into the Tachi, then the Katana.
How many ways of using the sword in china? Thats the problem, too many ways, too many differing techniques, too much complexity. The chinese art of the sword, while looking very impressive, is more suited to a gymnastic arena then combat. Too much aerial nonsense, to much spinning and twirling, this is not the way. Efficiency and simplicity, directness and determined motioned, that is the way.
Balancing mind, a good swordsman will be of no mind, the mind only gets in the way, the sword is wielded by the spirit of the wielder.
I know quite a bit about the history of Asia, was there an actual point to that particular question, or did you just wish to know if I knew a lot. Would help to be more specific.
You seem to be implying the Japanese got their combat tactics and martial prowess early on from the chinese, which is not the case at all. The Japanese evolved their own style and form of combat. Later it was indeed influence by Zen and Buddhism, which was imported from china, as was the original sword, but again, the Japanese made this their own as well. This is what the Japanese have done through their history, take something good and make it great, that is one of their gifts, the ability to adapt. This not only makes them good martial artists, but skilled at most any endeavor they put their mind to attaining.
No one is trying to make you seem or feel ignorant, hoever your words come from an obviously purely academic viewpoint, and not a very good one I am afraid. You do not speak from experience, this much is clear. and really, knowing about something but not knowing how to do it doe's not give you much credibility. This is especially true since what you do know is flawed and clearly has large gaps insofar as your knowledge on the subject itself. Names and dates may do you fine on a test, knowing this chines mastrs name, or some other obscure fact, but it's not that impressive to me.
I am sorry if I hurt your felings, not my intent, but if your going to atempt to talk with authority on a subject, then you must learn a lot more about it.[/quote
Iam sorry about my furious and gaffe at first.
What made me angry is not the sword ways but what you said about "great",I don't know who is great if a man who can made his difficult professional skills into sample,abroad and effective battle skills when his county was aggressed is not.
About katana,what you said is right. The technics of Japan sword have exceeded Chinese about for 600 years, There were were many complicated and historical reasons depend on community,economy,military affairs, etc. China can not equiped so many soldiers with the weapons exorbitant and damageable as katana.Katana has never been the primary weapon even in Japanese army.
But the design and useing ways except assassinating way of Japan have never exceeded Chinese .
Comment on Chinese ways of swords only depending on act ways fashioning today is not felicitous.
It need years even an one-to-one master-hand becoming a battle royal one.
I have read the history of weapons and their ways for 15 years,It's so tired about much kinds of controversy and puzzles that I want only to take a sample look and reading now.>
Post: NathanRahl:
HI again oxidee, its good to see you again. I am glad your nt mad about our last chat. There are so many divergng opinions about what is better, this or that, it gets on my nerves as well.
I wish people would realize that the physical movements themselves are not whats most important, but the mental and spiritual attitudes one learns that will more often then not govern who wins and who looses in one on one combat. Technique is useless if your fear causes you to hesitate in the face of seeming death.
Your not so bad, can take a little diverging opinion and difficulty from me and come back, nah, your ok, we can talk more I think oxidee, I think your ok ;)>
Post: WushuPadawan001:
"The technics of Japan sword have exceeded Chinese about for 600 years"
Wow, I mean....wellÂ….no. Sorry, but that is just really to uninformed a statement.
Nathan, man….you crack me up. I haven’t laughed so hard in a good while – which is nice cause I just got kicked from an Ony raid (yeah, I’m a nerd). But seriously dude, no style? I hear your argument against them, but come on; people have been using styles for thousands of years. The Spartans and Athenians, Chinese, Japanese, French, Germans, Persians, Indians, First Nation/Native Americans, Mauri (sp?) all have styles for martial combat. Couldn’t one even say that to have no style is a style in itself – the idea just seems a bit of a hypocritical to me.
Anyway, Nathan, you appear to be a very opinionate person, and really have a…unique outlook on the martial arts. Just tone it down a bit, don’t become the site’s pariah. And fyi, not that it’ll matter to you (or so I imagine), but I can vouch for Bloodybirds on that he knows his stuff, so please show respect, or leave – or don’t, I rather enjoy watching some of these guys rip others apart verbally.>
Post: oxidee:
[quote=WushuPadawan001 "The technics of Japan sword have exceeded Chinese about for 600 years"
Wow, I mean....wellÂ….no. Sorry, but that is just really to uninformed a statement.
Nathan, man….you crack me up. I haven’t laughed so hard in a good while – which is nice cause I just got kicked from an Ony raid (yeah, I’m a nerd). But seriously dude, no style? I hear your argument against them, but come on; people have been using styles for thousands of years. The Spartans and Athenians, Chinese, Japanese, French, Germans, Persians, Indians, First Nation/Native Americans, Mauri (sp?) all have styles for martial combat. Couldn’t one even say that to have no style is a style in itself – the idea just seems a bit of a hypocritical to me.
Anyway, Nathan, you appear to be a very opinionate person, and really have a…unique outlook on the martial arts. Just tone it down a bit, don’t become the site’s pariah. And fyi, not that it’ll matter to you (or so I imagine), but I can vouch for Bloodybirds on that he knows his stuff, so please show respect, or leave – or don’t, I rather enjoy watching some of these guys rip others apart verbally.[/quote
There are so much historical data can prove "The technics of Japan sword have exceeded Chinese about for 600 years." that I can't give a detailed depiction.Even I am a Chinese and do not pleasure about it.
History is history,any one who want to juggle it is foolish,cheeky and furitless.
The sample depiction is followed.
At the prophase of the Tang Dynasty about 1000 years ago. Japanese learned the design, technics of puckering smithing and using of swords from China.At the same time, they imported pucker-smithing swords and bows from China.And then they stoped importing swords, they could smith
sword by themselves.At that time,Japanese swords had an only difference from Chinese,Their swords was rigidity,short of elasticity with the reason of material.That is an characteristic or a disadvantage of tradition-technic katana until today.
After the Tang Dynasty,Chinese invented "guan gang fa"what means partial cementite today.Quality and cheap swords could be large quantities made in the way.
But those swords were not slap-up or revelating the technic level.
It made pucker-smithing technic into a singular and nobiliary technic too.
And then,pucker-smithing technic was thoroughly lost in chaoses caused by wars at about 500 years ago in china.
And the technics was developed,katana could been made in Japan at that time.
Chinese began to import or contraband katanas as nobiliary and aulic swords until guns prevailed.Most of the katanas imported were refited into one-hand swords to use on horse.
The partial kinds of nobiliary and aulic swords made in china during the period with technics of katana but from stretch material.The technics was not Chinese.
And the technics of ordinary swords be bad in Japan all along.They hardly
made ordinary swords in the whole history,Their ordinary weapons were bamboo spear.
Today, you can find some pucker-smithing and stretch Chinese swords (be not antique) in market,they were made with Chinese technics Which were not continued but revivificated from archaic books noted the Chinese pucker-smithing technics over 600 years ago.>
Post: WushuPadawan001:
OkayÂ….so your argument is that a Japanese sword is better than a Chinese sword, yes?
Here’s the thing: the techniques for a Chinese and Japanese sword as so different that the comparison, IMHO, is not valid. Now, when I think Chinese sword I think the jian, but even the same applies to the dao – they’re very different weapons than the katana. Even if Japanese smithing were applied to the jian and dao, it would eliminate the flexible qualities of the steel that is very valuable to Chinese swordplay.
ItÂ’s a lot like the difference between a titanium and aluminum lacrosse stick: sure titanium is stronger and more durable, but the aluminum (though fragile as hell) is light as a feather and great for maneuverability.
Hopefully that makes sense.>
Post: Hengest:
[quote=oxidee At the prophase of the Tang Dynasty about 1000 years ago. Japanese learned the design, technics of puckering smithing and using of swords from China.[/quote
That's a theory. It should not be stated as fact.
[quote=WushuPadawan001 Even if Japanese smithing were applied to the jian and dao, it would eliminate the flexible qualities of the steel that is very valuable to Chinese swordplay.[/quote
Now, I hold my hands up here: I know very little about Chinese swordplay. That said, I was under the impression that the trend for flexible swords in Chinese MA is a modern one stemming from contemporary wushu competition. Are there any historical examples of flexible swords being valuable to Chinese swordplay?>
Post: oxidee:
[quote=WushuPadawan001 OkayÂ….so your argument is that a Japanese sword is better than a Chinese sword, yes?
Here’s the thing: the techniques for a Chinese and Japanese sword as so different that the comparison, IMHO, is not valid. Now, when I think Chinese sword I think the jian, but even the same applies to the dao – they’re very different weapons than the katana. Even if Japanese smithing were applied to the jian and dao, it would eliminate the flexible qualities of the steel that is very valuable to Chinese swordplay.
ItÂ’s a lot like the difference between a titanium and aluminum lacrosse stick: sure titanium is stronger and more durable, but the aluminum (though fragile as hell) is light as a feather and great for maneuverability.
Hopefully that makes sense.[/quote
I see what you mean.
I will explain it.
"from stretch material" is not equivalent to "flexible qualities".
There are a few Chinese swordplays with "flexible qualities" swords,all the act ways,not actual combat ones.
Most of Chinese swords are hard,you can use them completely as other hard swords.
But,they can be lange-angle bended without breaking with powerful force,and they can completely comeback when the force is take off.That is the characteristic of "from stretch material".
Most kinds of "Jian" and narrow "Dao" have this characteristic if they are quality and Chinese whether they are pucker-smithing ones or not.>
Post: oxidee:
[quote=WushuPadawan001 Even if Japanese smithing were applied to the jian and dao, it would eliminate the flexible qualities of the steel that is very valuable to Chinese swordplay.
[/quote
Why?
It's very sample.
There was no flexible material in archaic Japan.The blade was easy destroyed without flexibility.
So,the Japanese smithings give a good way,they strengthen katana with add a long-piece plasticity material in katana.It increased firmness of katana.and the bend of katana was produced by the different shrink between the two material,before cooling,katana is straight !
Then,katana is can't made from flexible material,it will do matter to plasticity material in katana>
Post: angryrocker4:
All the chinese swords I've seen in the museum have been thin, but I wasnt allowed to play with'em and got kicked out for fondling the axes.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Oxidee, if this is true, two questions for you: did the advent of the Japanese sword propagate from Okinawa like the empty hand arts of the ryu systems and then migrate to the mainland, and secondly, if the Japanese improved upon the oxidation, folding, etc of making swords, what accounts for the difference in both the hardness and shape of Japanese swords versus Chineses jian, darn daos, and gims? Each of those type of swords are used for different purposes. For anyone out there, specifically (other than obvious differences...lol) in Japanese sword arts, how are the long and short swords employed and do the training differ? Also, as we have the double broadsword, double hook sword (usually specific to preying mantis), double knives, etc, are the swords in Japan made differently according to regional, battlefield conditions, etc?
Lastly, the flexibility, as it were, of the current wushu swords is a little different than in the old days. Because of the extensive training in sword, empty hand, and other weapons, the fa jing and waist/hip action was developed to the point where a hard sword bent or shook from the resonant power of the whole body in the thrust and parry. In the stabbing of the darn dao, only the last 4-6 inches of the blade should shake as a reflection of jing being sent through the blade.
I am sure the Japanese, as mentioned before, have both very different cutting angles and thrust/parries. One thing I find fascinating is how sword technique developed so radically different in Europe, Africa, and Asia during simultaneous periods in battle history.
To say that Japanese sword is better after the last 600 years is to thrust overall capabilities, extremely relative, on entire cultures. Remember, there were also the 18 weapons of Shaolin, different spear technique, the Wudang gim sword technique, etc. depending upon provincial norms in China during the time. Another question: are the Japanese sword techniques ubiquitous throughout Japan or, like China, the PI, Indonesia, etc, were the homogenous nature of the Japanese also foisted upon the sword so that the technique was the same throughout Japan? Or, were there regional differences in teaching/learning? Were the samurai the only sword practitioners? Was Japanese sword taught for both individual or group battle use, or both?
Sorry, my curious nature is getting the best of me!! All of this time I have been on the Chinese side and have seen Japanese sword demonstrated at tourneys over here (albeit, like Chinese sword, probably a very poor representation, in general) and when I was in Hong Kong and went to Osaka once and saw a demo while I was there. Thanks for any relative answers.
One suggestion: Again, like in the name of this particular forum, remember that the Chinese war sword, along with all these weapons we are discussing, were used at the time for real battle and real killing. Unfortunately, except in rare cases the true fighting methodologies are slowly eroding. Whether Chinese, Japanese, etc, it is up to us to honor our masters and our ancestors by maintaining the high skill and proficiency that these weapons represent. Just an editorial comment!!>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Angry, please stop fondling the axes? This is very disturbing and will only result in hours of detention hall!!! :wink: :D>
Post: zefff:
[quote=Bloodybirds Again, like in the name of this particular forum, remember that the Chinese war sword, along with all these weapons we are discussing, were used at the time for real battle and real killing.[/quote
Great point! That is the bottom line really.>
Post: angryrocker4:
But they need a gentle loving touch.>
Post: Bloodybirds:
Oh, alright Angry, but please move away from the red button with the nuclear arms....that is reserved only for people with bad haircuts and marching syndromes......guys, we must really help Angry find the right axe for himself!! Me, I just want a nicely balanced darn dao and gim to go with my long staff and spear.....maybe I should rephrase 8)>
Post: angryrocker4:
I want a 4 1/2ft long haft with a double blade crescent, kinda like the moon, with a medium sized hammer to cap it with. And a spike coming off the grip!>
Post: oxidee:
What you doubted are too huge and my English is not good enough to reply all of them,even I know most of the answers.I can seen someone had got tired about it.It is my last sample and partial reply about it.
It is eventual that the figure (not technics) of Japanese sword propagated from Okinawa,beacuse that the rudiment of katana is straight,but during the Tang Dynasty straight Dao (one blade sword) was mostly out of season in China,at that time,swords in Okinawa and Taiwan was straight yet.
Where did Karate come from is can not sure,there is no authentic historical data about it today.It is sure that judo come from the south Shaolin in China,it was detailedly registered in historical books.There were two Shaolin fanes at one time in China.
The Japanese ameliorated the technics of swords to fit their material,Katana is mainly made from high-carbon steel and Chinese swords always made from spring steel with partial cementiting whether they are pucker-smithing ones or not.They were different kinds swords,Katana is sharper and Chinese is more tenacious in capability,hard to contrast. The handcraft of katana always better then chinese swords.
The advancement of Japanese swords was not big.The main Reason of exceeding Chinese technics was not its advancement but Chinese regradation.There were too much technics regradation in China in the whole history with Chronic obscurant of dynasties and generations governments from Qin Dynasty.
Darn daos can been counted as the last design of Chinese sword,it was finalized at later of the Ming Dynasty."Darn dao"means
"one-hand sword" in Chinese.There are some big Darn dao using by two hands in market today,I don't know how they caused,it is so bizarrerie.Darn dao is an very advanced one-hand sword,you can be sure it at once if you brandish and hack with Darn dao.
Wushu dao and Wushu jian are mainly medicine equipment,not weapons,They look like Darn dao and jian,or are counted as especial kinds of Darn dao and jian.
One blade sword (not too short) called dao and double blade sword (not too short) called jian is commonly in China,but a few kinds are exceptive.
"only the last 4-6 inches of the blade should shake" is Wushu swords.
About"Japanese sword is better after the last 600 years is to thrust overall capabilities, extremely relative, on entire cultures."
It is impossible.There is no the best swords but better swords,though katana is sharper than most kinds of Europen swords and Chinese swords,it is very bad for katana that colliding with weapons as Chinese war sword and heavy blade of Europe because of its rigidity.In War II,The main reason of Japanese lost their melee battle in China is that the Japanese soldiers were in dread of colliding between katanas and Chinese war swords which made from ordinary steel.
"The 18 weapons" is not of Shaolin but China,it was finalized at the Song Dynasty,means 18 main kinds weapons used in battle field.
Kendo and katana belonged to the samurai only.The samurai was dominion class in archaic Japan,they could behead a commoner without aftereffect with only one quillet as disrespect etc.Katana was so costliness even for samurais that most of katana was for generations,very cherished.All of the pucker-smithing swords were too costliness to popularization wherever in ancientry.
Japanese sword was taught for both individual and group battle use,but no more.
Wushu including swordplays always is mainly civilian,it is made up of basic skills and sets of action.
Basic skills are things as weight lifting,long-distance running with burden,speel,sandbag,etc.etc.
sets of action are hypothetic aggression and recovery,it can increase harmonizing of body,make more correct and faster reaction in actual combat.It can be used in act,not copied in actual antagonizing,it need fit training.
There are so much genres of Wushu in china,None can see how all of them bringed,some of them have obvious connection of cooperating or suppressing.for example,some Wushus of Shaolin,even they are more powerful, is clearly restrain by swordplays of Wudang.
"There is no the best swords but better swords" is the same with swordplays including Kendo,etc.
For example,In War II, HAN MU XIA created and diffused his sample swordplay of Chinese war sword which is special for katana and bayonet.
correct:
yeah! I made a mistake, I confused the Karate and judo,If you can understand what the Japanese name of Karate before 1900 means,you will see why I said so about it.
Thank Hengest for pointing out my mistake.>
Post: Hengest:
[quote=oxidee It is sure that judo come from the south Shaolin in China,it was detailedly registered in historical books.There were two Shaolin fanes at one time in China. [/quote
It is not sure. In fact it's barely evidenced. I say again, stop stating theories as fact.
[quote=oxidee In War II,The main reason of Japanese lost their melee battle in China is that the Japanese soldiers were in dread of colliding between katanas and Chinese war swords which made from ordinary steel.[/quote
A ridiculous statement. In most Japanese kenjutsu ryuha, parrying with the sword is very common. The blow is usually deflected with the flat of the blade, not the edge, and on the third of the blade closest to the tsuba where it is strongest. A decent katana is quite capable of being used in such a fashion without fear of suffering extensive damage. And this is not a purely Japanese method; it is found in most sword schools around the globe.>
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