Lineage: Essential to becoming a good martial artist?
Original Poster: Judge Pen
Forum: McDojo Dicussion
Posted On: 19-04-2004, 20:57
Orginal Post: Judge Pen: Can you be a good martial artist if the style you practice has a nebulous lineage or history?
Post: BLACK PANTA:
Yes you can still be a good martial artist if your lineage is weak or false. The problem with that though is you may not be learning or practicing the art in which you think you are. The art may be the art but also lacking. That is why many people value lineage. Lineages BTW doesn't have to be known. There are many great MAist who chose not to be known and handed down their styles through their family and friends.
Lineage is like cars. Toyota has a great history and lineage, you know they are good cars. Whereas Hyundai has has a shaky history, and their cars were not reliable. Now some of their cars are okay, but not great. Even still the trust in the company is not there.
Sorry it's the best analogy I could think of rite now at work :D>
Post: Bushi:
That analogy was pretty good, given the subject. I will go a step further. Some people loved the Delorian (Back to the Future Car) it had no "lineage" but was adored and looked pretty cool. :wink:>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=Bushi That analogy was pretty good, given the subject. I will go a step further. Some people loved the Delorian (Back to the Future Car) it had no "lineage" but was adored and looked pretty cool. :wink:[/quote
the delorian. lol. I love that car even now
Saw a dude in my neighbourhood driving one. He was like super cool. I envied him. :(>
Post: Destinova:
Hmmm Interesting concept with the car
But.......... there are some Mc Dojos that produce good MArtists
And I know plenty of Mc Dojos>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=Destinova Hmmm Interesting concept with the car
But.......... there are some Mc Dojos that produce good MArtists
And I know plenty of Mc Dojos[/quote
"well I always say you can teach someone to fish but only he can choose to become a great fisherman.">
Post: Destinova:
Another well thought up analogy
It's true..... You can only do some much.......
But never underestimate a Mc Dojo either>
Post: Gong||Jau:
A naturally skilled driver will remain one, even in a Ford Pinto. However, a less skilled driver would be made a better one if he were driving a Porsche 911.>
Post: Destinova:
[quote=*Gong*Sao* A naturally skilled driver will remain one, even in a Ford Pinto. However, a less skilled driver would be made a better one if he were driving a Porsche 911.[/quote HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
I think that beats us both eh? blacky (no offence if you're black)>
Post: Gong||Jau:
I'm not, don't worry... and I don't want to speak for Panta, but I don't think he'd take offense to that; he's a pretty laid back guy :wink:>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=Destinova [quote=*Gong*Sao* A naturally skilled driver will remain one, even in a Ford Pinto. However, a less skilled driver would be made a better one if he were driving a Porsche 911.[/quote HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
I think that beats us both eh? blacky (no offence if you're black)[/quote
This thread should be renamed MA Lineage analogies. :lol:>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=*Gong*Sao* I'm not, don't worry... and I don't want to speak for Panta, but I don't think he'd take offense to that; he's a pretty laid back guy :wink:[/quote
I dont take offence to the blackey comment but I do take offence to what you said Gong Sao......what did you say.....let me check..............oh okay then, well carry on. :D
I though you said I got laid in my back lol :lol:>
Post: Destinova:
HAHAHAHHAH
well Im new to this forum so i don't want to get off on the wrong foot here>
Post: Judge Pen:
The Pinto/Porsche anaolgy brings up another point. Assuming a good martial artis comes from a school with a nebulous history. Is it just natural ability or did the "McDojo" contribute. If so, what, in your opinion, is the maximum ratio for natural ability vs. McDojo training? 50/50? 60/40? 30/70?
How do we know he would be better studying in a style with a verified lineage?>
Post: Judge Pen:
Another question:
Is a McDojo simply a school with a nebulous lineage or is that simply one of the factors? Can you be a "franchised" school and not be a McDojo?>
Post: Gong||Jau:
It's not usually a matter of lineage, although it does make the whole style suspicious when it claims a lineage that most people don't believe it has. The thing is, you'll have a hard time finding a style that, flying kicks aside, doesn't have any viable techniques. Even McDojos, unless they're absolutely the worst sort (Ashida Kim) have techniques that come from somewhere and were battleworthy at one point. A naturally good fighter can take those techniques and use them to great effect, but with proper training they'd no doubt be better. I mean, Tyson was a street brawler before he was a boxer. I wouldn't have wanted to fight him when he was 12, but I sure as hell wouldn't fight him now.
edit: just saw your last post. McDojos are a variety of things. Generally it refers to a style that values money over anything else, which is why people are accusing SD of being a McDojo: the lineage is extremely suspicious, and it sounds like they're claiming Shaolin roots just to lure people into the style. Other common characteristics are a lack of sparring, an instructor who calls himself grandmaster, lots of kids at the school, and ridiculous claims (i.e. "beat up anybody in just 1 short week!").>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
well franchised school can, not be a Mc dojo IMHO. A McDojo is like a black belt factory, where you pay for you rank. You usually come out with no real skill. And even if you do know techniques you dont know it well. There is minimal to no conditioning. Or only conditioning and no skill. A Mc Dojo is somewhere where they say you can become something you may never become by staying in that school.
As for a good MA comming from a McDojo, I still say yes it can happen. He may know how to condition himself and how to apply the techniques properly. He may learn outside the dojo as well. And yes natural ability has a lot to do with becomming a good MA IMO. I mean we cant expect someone like Danny DeVito becomming a great MA even with 100 years of training :lol:
edit: just saw gong post and he pretty much covered it. up there. But a "franchise" school doesn't necessarily mean McDojo.>
Post: Judge Pen:
Ok guys here's my point from my experience:
1. There is a wide discrepency in the skill levels in SD schools. I have seen SD schools that certainly fit your description. I have been a part of schools that do not. My school spends equal time in teaching forms with applications, conditioning, and fighting wiht an emphasis in the techniques you are learning in those forms.
2. Lineage. Yep, it's a problem. Probably part myth and part true, but I have no way of distinguishing it.
3. Money: I currently pay $40 a month for 2 regular 3 hour classes a week, 1 1.5 hour private with my teacher, and 3 specialty classes a month. Other SD schools may have a different approach, but I can tell you it's not all about money at my school.
4. Time for rank. I've been doing it for 15 years. It took me 31/2 years before I attained 1st black. I only recently attained the rank of 3rd black. There were 35 people that started training with me and only 2 made it to black. We are hardly "giving" away rank at my school.
5. Certification: Once a year every black sash that is active under Master Mullins MUST pass a physical requirement test. This includes lots of stance work. Hurts like hell but insures that those wearing the rank can at least do certain minimum physical activities.
6. Marketing: GM Sin The has called his art shaolin since 1967. Correct me if I'm wrong, but shaolin wasn't a household name at that point. He also called it karate, and that may have been for marketing since many more people knew of karate then gong fu at the time.
7. Kids: Yes we have a kids class, but we work them hard and very few (less than 3%) make it to a junior black rank. We have one 8 year old that I wouldn't want to mess with once he stops growing. While I don't prefer a kids class, they are a necessary evil.
Sd has its problems, but you can't jusge one student, or one school, or one website and automatically assume that every student or school is like that. My experineces have been different; that's all.>
Post: setsu nin to:
Judge Pen
In theory someone who practice in McDojo may be good martial artist.>
Post: EvilScott:
[quote=Judge Pen Another question:
Is a McDojo simply a school with a nebulous lineage or is that simply one of the factors? Can you be a "franchised" school and not be a McDojo?[/quote
You can be a "franchised" school and still be a McDojo. A McDojo is just a school that passes off shoddy training as quality training.
Also - you mentioned you trained for 3 and one half years to be a black belt. That's kinda fast IMO...
Regarding lineage - a solid lineage is a way to solidify how likely a school's curriculum is quality, since it has been tested by time.
Shaolin Do is relatively new. It remains to be seen whether it will fail the test of time or not. Even if your lineage is 100% true, Shaolin Do isn't even 100 years old yet and has never been tested on a large scale in wartime.
All these things do not damn it - but they certainly make MAists look much more critically at your art.>
Post: Judge Pen:
31/2 years may be fast to some, but it's not like the rank was bought or given away in less than a year. We all know of schools where this happens.
Battle tested? Has every style's material been battle tested? Has Hsing-Ie, Tai Chi, and Pa Kua been battle tested? Hua Mountain Long Fist? If so, SD has material that has been battle tested.
If SD has not been "tested in large scale wartime" and that's why it's not respected, then I doubt it ever will be. Wars aren't fought that way anymore.>
Post: Judge Pen:
[quote=EvilScott [quote=Judge Pen Another question:
Is a McDojo simply a school with a nebulous lineage or is that simply one of the factors? Can you be a "franchised" school and not be a McDojo?[/quote
You can be a "franchised" school and still be a McDojo. A McDojo is just a school that passes off shoddy training as quality training.
[/quote
Oh I was wondering if you can train at a "franchised" school and not be a McDojo.>
Post: EvilScott:
[quote=Judge Pen If SD has not been "tested in large scale wartime" and that's why it's not respected, then I doubt it ever will be. Wars aren't fought that way anymore.[/quote
Many of the MAs you mentioned were battle tested during the guerilla warfare and assassinations that littered the period of the Boxer Rebellion.
Shaolin Do is an amalgamation of these, with obvious additions that are very Japanese.
It has not been battle tested, but that does not damn it. It - as I mentioned earlier - makes intelligent MAists look much harder at its quality.>
Post: Judge Pen:
Well the Chinese boxers lost in the Boxer Rebellion. I've browsed the lineage thread you and meece are having, and the Japanese terminology has been discussed in detail there.
In all honesty, the material has evolved into its own beast due to its unique lineage, but the roots are Chinese nonetheless.>
Post: EvilScott:
[quote=Judge Pen Well the Chinese boxers lost in the Boxer Rebellion.[/quote
And the samurai lost their civil war - the fact that that style of fighting was utilized is what matters.
The Japanese terms, gis, and belts aren't my concern - I could care less about them (though the article on ShaolinDo.com about gi's is laughable).
My care is the VERY japanese stances, striking, and use of weapons that were in both countries. Japanese and Chinese staff fighting is VERY different, for example. From what I have seen Shaolin Do looks much more Japanese than Chinese.
Your lineage and principles are OK in my book, I just am having trouble with the additional stuff you piggyback on top of it.>
Post: Judge Pen:
Our first staff form is not a form as much as it is a drill in basic blocks, strikes, and spins. The second and third staff forms are nothing like a japanese form. Most of the strikes are with the tip of the staff and it is held at one end mcuh like a Chinese spear. La Na Cha block/strike sequences, whipping the staff around from one end, etc.
I've seen a lot of Japanese bo forms, and ours does not look like theres.
Some background on the shoalin-do uniform link. It was recently posted mainly in response to some SD schools abandoning the gi for a more recognizable Chinese influenced uniform (frog button tops, etc). My school is one of the chief schools to do such, and it has caused quite the stir among the SD practitioners in Kentucky and Texas.
Stances? We are taught that our stances are one of three heights: standing straight up, butt at the knee, or butt at the ankle. I'm not sure what you mean about our stances looking japanese. Do you have a link as to what you are referring to?>
Post: EvilScott:
Here are some pics I found on www.swshaolin.com
Leaning forward in stances, horizontal fists, chambered punches, its all very Japanese.
Perhaps these are bad examples - do you have links to a site that has representations of Shaolin Do.
I'd also like to comment that I am impressed you are so patient with us, here at FA, and you are definately affected my opinion of Shaolin Do in a positive way.
Ps. I know your SD == Shaolin Do, but more commonly SD == Self defense, for future ref. :mrgreen:>
Post: Judge Pen:
My teacher:
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/gallery/showpic.php?pic=/gallery/johnson_city/01.jpg
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/gallery/showpic.php?pic=/gallery/johnson_city/02.jpg
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/gallery/showpic.php?pic=/gallery/johnson_city/03.jpg
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/gallery/showpic.php?pic=/gallery/johnson_city/04.jpg>
Post: Judge Pen:
Those pics from the Texas site are some very basic forms: Our short forms are similiar to Tan Tui that some schools teach and are done from a low bow stance. The "U" puch is from LoHan Chien and is immediately followed up by a quick transition from a horse to a monkey stance.>
Post: Mr.Cool:
Quote: Can you be a good martial artist if the style you practice has a nebulous lineage or history?
Some people can become skilled fighters with no instruction at all. I don't think it's just a matter of whether or not your lineage is made up, but how long ago did the phoney lineage start, and why you're making up the phoney lineage. The most sucessful frauds I've seen often have some skill in something more mundane, then make up a fairy tale to make themselves seem more important or interesting than they actually are.
It's not hard for a skilled karate practitioner to learn a taiji form(for example) from book, video, siminar, etc. and make up a bunch of somewhat reasonable applications through experimentation or simple logic. Just about anyone could come up with an application for the parting the horses mane or repulse monkey postures from Yang style taiji quan just by looking at the form. The average person is easilly taken in by this kind of act.
Also, frauds often gain legitimacy through testimonials like "I lost 20 pounds since I started wudang shaolin wushu do!!!!" Or "Wingkaratefushudo saved my life from a mugger!" Well, regualar exercise will improve your health tremendously, and you don't need to be a martial arts expert to defend yourself against an untrained attacker on the street! Some basic technique and the right attitude are all alot of people really need. Frauds are often very good at teaching that last part, as being an excellent motivator is also a great asset for scam artists. It's like a Hapkido teacher told me the other night... "criminals are often phd's in phychology without ever having stepped foot into a classroom" ;)>
Post: Mr.Cool:
Oh, and about the second pick of Mr. Mullins(the eagle claw posture)... that posture is nearly identical to a posture in modern wushu eagle claw. Any posibility you could convince someone to post a vid(or at least the segment with that part) of that form online? I know there used to be some videos of Mr. Mullins online, but they seem to be gone now :(>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
The thing about shaolin do is that it may not be Karate and it may not be Kung Fu. It could be Kempo.>
Post: Kyorgi:
As long as were going there, you could say it could be anything, Ive even heard of this martial art that people thought they were studing lets call the MA "x" but it turns out that they werent studying "x" and people who thought they were studying say......shaolin kung fu were the ones studying the true "x"....confusing eh?>
Post: EvilScott:
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/gallery/showpic.php?pic=/gallery/johnson_city/04.jpg
Is there a reason his punching arm is not straight here? Striking this way is a good way to break a wrist.
Otherwise the pictures look good. From what you are telling me, the early stuff is more Japanese and the later stuff becomes more Chinese? Interesting approach...>
Post: Judge Pen:
Well I think the early stuff is a foundation to prepare you for the more dvanced stuff. More static stances and straight line punches or kicks to give you a stronger foundation. Doesn't mean it was Japanese. You can find a similar approach in many CMAs.
As for the arm, I'm not sure. Maybe the pic was taken while he was moving through the technique, Maybe the angle was circular with a different empahsis. I'll ask Master Mullins next Friday when I see him.>
Post: Judge Pen:
Oh, I think they will be posting some vids on that site soon, but they seem to be slow at updating it sometimes.
As for the eagle form, I don't know that particular form and I've never seen it. Don't know if he will do that one or not.
Mr. Cool, do I know you? :wink:>
Post: Mr.Cool:
I'm Wushu Monster/Brad :mrgreen:>
Post: Judge Pen:
Thought so. It's sad, I can almost recognize people from their posts now. :P>
Post: Dcrjr:
Just my own opinion but If you are in a style that?s linage is not traceable it's a bastard art. Bye using the term bastard art means no disrespect. But true blood, true heritage, true morals ext has been lost. Is a traceable art more better than a bastard art not at all what makes a martial artist more respectable is not his linage that he poses but his moral character. Don't understand what I just said let me give you something to compare it to. In Today's world there are many women out there that open up for every tom, dick, Harry now when she drops a kid and there is no father he/she is a bastard child. Compare olden days to today's society a big difference it wasn?t proper to bare children unwed but today its common. Doesn't mean the bastard kid wont grow up and be a conductive member to society's So traditional arts are like older generation and Mcdojos are common in today's society but keep in mind prostitutes have been around for ever and they well tell you any thing you want to here for that $. Best not to worry so much on the history and linage but best to focus on the whore(dojo) you lay with.>
Post: Judge Pen:
:shock: Wow, while I understand the term "bastard" I never thoguht of carrying the analogy that far.>
Post: Palm Strike:
Your instructor looks like he would be a good Yoga instructor- looks like he has strong balance, flexibility, etc. I'm just hoping you don't try a strike from the 'airplane' pose :)
I don't doubt Shaolin-do can bring out excellent martial artists, but not having participated in the art myself, I'll hold out judgement.
As for lineage, it seems useful to me so long as it remains 'effectively' unbroken. A system of passing the entirety of a teacher's skill to a student would seem to be the best way for the continuance of the combat effectiveness of a style because it carries with it the experience of years of training and a 'teaching' style, more than just a fighting style. However, it's when people train for one or two years with an instructor and then go off spouting their 'lineage' that the line becomes blurry, and it's difficult to find the true 'lineage' of the master. Then, the line is effectively broken.>
Post: Judge Pen:
Palm Strike: Out of curiosity, what MA do you study?>
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