Tough Choices
Original Poster: prsm40
Forum: Others
Posted On: 23-03-2005, 05:24
Orginal Post: prsm40: Hi Everyone,
Hoping to find some good advice on my dilema.
I've been looking at different schools with different styles and also researching on different styles. It might help to say that I am looking for a fighting style that is effective in real life situations. A style that can prove effective no matter you height, age or physical strength.
Of the styles that I have looked at, Krav Maga seems to be the most effective for street fighting, but violent. I believe it would be tough to prove to Police, that you were just defending yourself, when the guy laying on the ground is a mess. I'm interested in a style that will help you control an attacker via locks or throws, to send a message that if the attacker insists more pain can be inflicted as well as permanent damage. So for those of you that are experts in your respective style, how effective is Aikido and Ju Jitsu in real life situations? Would I be better off in studying Krav Maga and complement it with Ju Jitsu or BJJ?
Look forward to your input
Post: zefff:
why dont you just go to a class of either and work it out for yourself, personal experience is the best teacher.
Do you really think a dude is gonna say "yeah dont study my art, its a waste of time"?>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
Dude, don't study my art, it's a waste of time.
Sorry, I had to, Zefff.
Since you're looking for real world applicability, the school you need to study at needs to spar and test your skills regularly. Many traditional schools of aikido and ju jutsu will randori, but it can often be closer to choreography than to a fight. That being said, there are also great schools within both headings that will test your skills constantly and force you to become better. Since you want locks and throws, you may also consider Systema or even freestyle wrestling. I would strongly advise against Brazilian Ju Jutsu because the focus of the BJJ training is on groundwork, and even if you're controlling somebody on the ground, you are in an extremely vulnerable position to anyone else who wants to get involved.
The bottom line, though, is that you need to find a few schools that sound like they might give you what you need, go and visit a class and decide which school can provide you the best training. We can't do much else for you.>
Post: setsu nin to:
In my opinion if you are interesting in "style that will help you control an attacker via locks or throws, to send a message that if the attacker insists more pain can be inflicted as well as permanent damage", than I would recomande to you Aikido. Also there are more styles of Aikido, some are more and some less effective in real life fights, also it depende on Sensei... Systema is another good choice, same as Judo. But moust important is that you finde good teacher and good Dojo. So fide Dojo and go there to see what they offer to you.
Good luck!>
Post: MrApollinax:
I've done the Krav Maga/Jujutsu/BJJ mix. It is a good combination. I went up to a level III in the KM system before focusing more on the sportive arts like BJJ/Judo. There are many sweeps and takedowns in KM but the majority of the focus is using strikes and explosive action to get yourself out of a bad situation. In your case I would think wrestling or Judo would be a good start along with KM for it's strikes and self-defense.
Where are you located? I might be able to tell help you find info about the KM instructor(s). Like stated above, nothing can replace the experience of going to a school and watching or participating in a class.>
Post: dscott:
The best thing to do is find an art that you might be interested in then visit a couple schools, do research, read about it. If you like it, pursue it. If you don't, try looking at a different art.
The only one who can answer the question of "which art should I do" is yourself. We can only provide you with information.>
Post: wuming:
Personally I beleive that bjj and/or jj are terrible arts for "real world" application. IMHO these arts are better in the sport arena. If you get jumped on the street or whatever, odds are you assailant is going to have some buddies with him. Trying to take an attacker to the ground leaves you wide open to attack from his partners. In fact, I just read an article in kung fu tai chi about bjj being brought to Taiwan and the man who is trying to build it up said that bjj is the most effective art, I just want to walk up to him and smack him with a bat while he is some lock with someone and then see what he thinks. lol But that is just my personal opinion, I really just do not like grappling arts. If you are getting attacked and your life and/or physical well being or what have you is on the line you are going to want to disable the assailant as quick as possible; grappling just isn't going to do the job.>
Post: zefff:
BJJ and JJ are two different things. Im sure you cant really say they are both terrible if youve not experienced them yourself. Maybe you have, I dont know but I thought JJ was taught to certain police? That would mean it is continually tested and so must be effective for their purposes.
Obviously it is common sense that should prevail whatever the art and I cant see the average BJJ man jumping straight to guard in a street fight.
"I really just do not like grappling arts. If you are getting attacked and your life and/or physical well being or what have you is on the line you are going to want to disable the assailant as quick as possible; grappling just isn't going to do the job."
yes but what if you find yourself in a position where 'grappling' IS the quickest way to disable the assailant?
I would say the best school or art is a rounded one. Yes an attacker will have something that he feels gives him an advantage, be it a partner, a weapon or surprise or intimidation so what can you do hey? :wink: You cant be partial to yourself by discounting grappling, striking or weaponry really. It shouldnt be a case of 'I dont like this or that' because that is a political decision you make that limits yourself. I feel martial art should be a case of 'whatever it takes to get what I want'. So yes you should be able to use that bat...seriously! :D>
Post: prsm40:
Thanks for all the input guys. I have to agree with all of you that feel bjj is not practical for the street. Cement and tar are not as forgiving as the gym mats.
Growing up I was involved in a lot of street fights, and the last one almost cost me my life. Was jumped by 5 guys, and while I was busy beating one up and getting kicked in the ribs by another, one other guy got me from behind. He tackled my legs and I went down on top of the guy I was hitting. At that point they used my head as a soccer ball. So having experienced first hand what can happen if you go down, I don't want to be in that position, or learn a style that is based on ground fighting.
I took olympic wrestling in my teens, and got pretty good at it. I tried Shotokan Karate and after the first sparing session, I quit. Very unrealistic for the streets.
I decided to start with Krav Maga and complement it with either JJ or Aikido.
MrApollinax - I'm located in Massachusetts. I'd welcome any recomendations for a KM school. I took an introductory KM class at one school and didn't care for the instructor. Some of the moves were new to me, but he wanted me to yell and scream the whole time, I was hitting the dummy. Sorry, but I just don't see the point. If I had to yell like that in a real fight, I'd attract a lot of unwanted attention not to metion I'd loose my voice for days. Also the fact he wanted $280 up front and monthly payments of $150 definitely did it for me.
Thanks>
Post: dscott:
I've never been to any of these schools but here's a list of licensed Krav Maga schools in Massachusetts.
http://www.kravmaga.com/massachusets.asp>
Post: MrApollinax:
The only school I'm familiar with in Mass is the Boston school. They have some pretty good instructors there from what I gather. Any others I couldn't tell you for sure. Good luck with your training and stay safe!>
Post: dscott:
I've actually been interested in Krav Maga as well so I might start looking into the Boston school or Tewksbury school.>
Post: MrApollinax:
I spent a couple of years in the system. If you have any questions feel free to ask.>
Post: prsm40:
I do have some questions for you MrApollinax.
Since you have spent 2 yrs studying KM, do you honestly feel that it is an effective self defense system for real life? Do you feel confident in your ability to deal with an attacker, regardless of size?
thanks>
Post: MrApollinax:
Wow, that is a pretty loaded question. I honestly do believe it is a good system. The caveat to that would be "If the system is trained right." My first instructors in the system were two of the first Black Belts in the US. Another instructer I had got his BB from Imi and learned the system while serving in the IDF. Because of their backgrounds the system was taught in way where I would say yes, i felt that I could deal with an attack regardless of size. By "deal with an attacker" I mean give me enough options and solutions to problems to safely get away from danger. Krav Maga will not teach you how to fight at first. What it will teach you is basic movement, strikes, defenses and some self-defense technique. You will learn to apply the defenses under stress and in less than optional circumstances. Keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between a fight and self-defense. As you progress with your training and you show that you can handle some light contact sparring will be introduced and you will get to test your technique against resisting opponents. In the last 6-8 months before I left the system I was sparring with my instructor in Minneapolis pretty hard with the only protective gear being gloves, mouth-guard and shin gaurds. Cup was optional.
Individual > System
If a system tends to produce good fighters then look at the way that system trains and emulate it. If a System produces one or two exceptional fighters and a lot of mediocre ones, look at the way those exceptional indiviuals train and try to emulate it.
That was a much longer post than I intended.
So the short answer is yes, however I did compliment my training with Aikijujutsu and BJJ at the time. So my experience may differ quite a bit from what you will experience. As always it ultimately boils down to how dedicated you are to your training regardless of the system you take. If you train hard against resisting opponents and test your techniques in that manner you will feel confident of your abilities.>
Post: prsm40:
thanks again buddy. Good info. I agree that it boils down to the instructors, and how dedicated one is to learning the system. Now you got me doing some more research. Curious on the difference between Aikijujutsu and Aikido.
DScott- I'm going to take a class next week at the Boston KM school. I will post how it went.
It's friday. there's a Stella somewhere with my anme on it.>
Post: zefff:
"... how dedicated one is to learning the system.
It's friday. there's a Stella somewhere with my anme on it."
*Roy Castle rolls over in his grave and crushes his bugle :roll: :mrgreen:
(obscure British 'Record Breakers' TV show reference)>
Post: prsm40:
thanks again buddy. I agree the instructor and one's willingness to learn has a lot to do with it. I'm a firm believer in sparring. In order to find out if the tecniques you learn work, you have to try them out. You also may find out during sparring, that you feel akward in applying some tecniques. Sparring will help you figure out what works for you and what doesn't. It will also tell you if you can take a hit and stay in the fight. Some folks can get hit pretty good while others go down easily.
Again very good info. Look forward to more discussions.
DScott - I'm taking a class next week at the Boston KM school. I'll post the results after.
it's Friday and there's a Stella with my name on it>
Post: setsu nin to:
prsm40
"Curious on the difference between Aikijujutsu and Aikido"
Generaly Aikido was developed from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, Daito-ryu AJJ is Koryu art and Aikido is Gendai art... but what make real difference between these two arts is approach to the art. About technical difference is realy hard to talk today, becouse Takedas Daito-ryu AJJ and OSenseis Aikido were developed in more legitimite branches, some are more and some less similar to eachother. So main difference would be in approach to the art (-jutsu and -do).
If you decide to look for it you may start here.
http://www.fightauthority.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1840>
Post: prsm40:
double entries and misspelled words. Bad Friday at work.
setsu nin to - thanks for the info. in doing some research I came across an Aikido club at my job, which is run by a colleague who happens to be one of the instructors of the local dojo. There's a class in one of the conference rooms every Tuesday. Going to the next class to observe. I watched some clips on line, and it just amazes me the ease with which the attackers are controlled, and the fluidity of the movements.>
Post: setsu nin to:
prsm40
Its great that you decide to try Aikido. Could you post web address of the Dojo?
Well if you have any question about Aikido you may ask bamboo about it. He is best person here to ask anything about Aikido. He even start Aikido Q&A thread in Japanese martial arts forum.>
Post: wuming:
Zeff,
Yeah I am aware that bjj and jj can be effective in given situations, but I guess I should have stressed more of what is going to happen if you get attacked by multiple opponents, which I think is something that may happen a great deal more than being attacked by one single opponent. Also I should clear up my proposition on grappling and just specifically state ground fighting. I do think that chin na (joint locking) and trows are very good techniques, I just meant to say that I do not like the idea of specializing in ground fighting for practical self defense purposes; because like I said, what if you are attacked by multiple opponents and while you are "wrestling" with one opponent the others have a free open shot at you. That is all I was really trying to say. Thanks for the refutation zeff so I could clear up my statement. :)>
Post: setsu nin to:
wuming
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Japanese Jujutsu are much diferent. Almoust every Japanese Jujutsu ryuha have techniques against multiple attacks which doesnt have to be groundfighting techniques.>
Post: prsm40:
setsu nin to
the web address for the Aikido Dojo is http://www.aikidoframingham.com/.
I also found a video clip of an Aikido demonstration and it was awesome to say the least. http://www.fightclips.net/aikido.htm>
Post: setsu nin to:
prsm40
Thanks for web page and video clips!>
Post: 8LimbsScientist:
A quote whose source I've forgotten (hope I don't butcher it):
"In order for pacifism to have any meaning, it must be a choice, not a resignation."
I'd prefer to be trained to brutally put an end to an attack and choose not to, then to restrict myself to only learning less lethal techniques. If you like Aikido, stick with it, but maybe take up a striking art to broaden your horizons?
I'm not saying Aikido can't be lethal, but sometimes you need a flurry of strikes...>
Post: wuming:
Thanks for the insight sestsu, I did not know that. :)>
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