Western Approach to MMA
Original Poster: MA dude
Forum: Others
Posted On: 22-11-2004, 00:57
Orginal Post: MA dude: As people know in mma and self defense you need to have a "base" for each range of fighting. One of the most effective approaches is the western approach that is using arts that originated in Europe, U.S. and other western countries. Since western arts like boxing and wrestling teach you practical things right away and concentrate on effective methods they are very good. I will detail the western method to NHB here.
Striking-Striking is borrowed from both modern boxing and the Pre-Queensbury boxing. You learn a full range of striking techniques from Pre-Queensbury boxing and you learn about modern advances and strategies from the boxing of today.
Takedowns-Borrowed primarily from Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling. As most people know for takedowns and clinch techniques you need to look no further than wrestling. Positioning on the ground is also borrowed from wrestling.
Submissions- The submissions from this approach are borrowed from all Mediterranean basin wrestling styles, Russian folk wrestling, Sambo, Pankratium, and of course English All-In wrestling and Catch-as-Catch-Can.
This approach is very effective and is used by Mark Hatmaker www.extremeselfprotection.com Team Quest and many other fighters in today's mma contests.
Post: The BadBoy:
[quote=MA dude Submissions- The submissions from this approach are borrowed from all Mediterranean basin wrestling styles, Russian folk wrestling, Sambo, Pankratium, and of course English All-In wrestling and Catch-as-Catch-Can.
[/quote
Give credit where credit is due bro. If it hadn't been for Royce and the rest of the Gracies tapping people out left right and centre, there probably would not have been too many people doing submissions in MMA. So I would say the majority of the Subs came after the introduction of Gracie jiu Jitsu. Regardlesss of wether the other arts have the same positions and techniques or not. Also I'm pretty sure that most MMA fights train in BJJ rather than Catch as Catch Can.>
Post: MA dude:
I am guessing there would be quite a few people doing submissions even if a GJJ practicioner was not in that tournament. Subs have been practiced for a long time, much longer than GJJ was around and GJJ has nothing "new" nor does its submission holds use more leverage. Many fighters train BJJ. Many fighters train sambo or judo. Fewer fighters train Catch because it is not very widespread but many fighters do come to Tony for training. I am not sure what you are saying. That GJJ should be included because it was the first arts to open up people's eyes in the UFC? That does not make much sense. Just because its practicioner was the first one in the UFC to do it does not mean much. Another grappler would have come along eventually and done the same thing. BJJ does not really have more submissions than any other arts and other arts have had been doing subs for a long time. But the main reason that I did not count it was because this was an western style approach and I was not really counting South American countries. Also this was a list if my favorite styles which are western combat arts that were mentioned above and muay thai. I do not like the other style of kickboxing though.>
Post: The BadBoy:
Yeah someone may eventually have come along and started doing subs but hey someone didn't royce did. Look at shooto in Japan. look at the earlier fights. Did you see the guard? Did you see people fighting for position on the ground? No and these were submission wrestlers. Then look at it after Rickson popped his head in. The whole game changed. As much as I hate the marketing hype which is BJJ, I just feel credit should be given where its due.>
Post: Hengest:
I think we're missing the point a bit. The way I read it is that all MA Dude is saying is that you can have a highly effective MMA system based on western fighting arts alone. I don't think he's making these remarks at the expense of other styles.
I think it's a great approach. I wish more fighters would realise the effectiveness of WMA.>
Post: The BadBoy:
In that case, I agree. I feel that becuase Western MAs are mostly trained as sports there is usally a lot less BS and Mysticism involved in them. The are trained athletically so the crap that doesn't work usually doesn't get taught.>
Post: Hengest:
[quote=The BadBoy In that case, I agree. I feel that becuase Western MAs are mostly trained as sports there is usally a lot less BS and Mysticism involved in them. The are trained athletically so the crap that doesn't work usually doesn't get taught.[/quote
Absolutely. That's why I hate the "Asian arts are much more complex and therefore effective" arguement. It would be a good arguement but for two massive gaping flaws: 1) they're generally not more complex, and 2) they're generally no more effective.>
Post: MA dude:
[quote=The BadBoy Yeah someone may eventually have come along and started doing subs but hey someone didn't royce did. Look at shooto in Japan. look at the earlier fights. Did you see the guard? Did you see people fighting for position on the ground? No and these were submission wrestlers. Then look at it after Rickson popped his head in. The whole game changed. As much as I hate the marketing hype which is BJJ, I just feel credit should be given where its due.[/quote
Of course they should have been given credit for spreading it. But the Catch wrestling has been using the guard a long time before that and so has pankration(not to mention sambo) and other arts.. Judo has utilized it but the ne-waza has degenerated. But this is all a bit off topic. I am just showing how these western systems are one of the best approaches to mma I know and thought I would share it with the forum. On other forums I have been asked for material on this approach. There are videos of sambo, straight boxing, straight wrestling that are all very good but the people seem to have the most trouble finding the Pre-Queensbury boxing vids and catch wrestling. www.groundfighter.com has a catchwrestling series, Mark Hatmaker has a combo of catch and other arts in his books, more catch wrestling material can be found at www.catchwrestle.com Pre-Queensbury boxing can be found in the product section of www.extremeselfprotection.com and they are under the titles of Illegal boxing and Extreme Boxing. I thought I would post those links before someone asks for them.>
Post: Hengest:
[quote=MA dude But the Catch wrestling has been using the guard a long time before that and so has pankration(not to mention sambo) and other arts[/quote
Although it should be said that catch doesn't use the guard very often. Unlike BJJ, it sees the guard as a position of weakness and one to be avoided.
And the pankration taught today has been largely influenced by BJJ (it is a modern MMA system after all), so that explains the use of the guard there.
On the links you posted Dude, I'm really interested in the Extreme Boxing tapes, but I can't seem to get the "to order" page to work. Do you know where else I could get them?>
Post: Ninja Kl0wn:
Ebay>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=Hengest [quote=MA dude But the Catch wrestling has been using the guard a long time before that and so has pankration(not to mention sambo) and other arts[/quote
Although it should be said that catch doesn't use the guard very often. Unlike BJJ, it sees the guard as a position of weakness and one to be avoided.
And the pankration taught today has been largely influenced by BJJ (it is a modern MMA system after all), so that explains the use of the guard there.[/quote
Seriously, Catch is a system of submission regardless of position, they don't want to go for the guard and if they end up there it's a bad thing. What we call Pnakration these days is pretty much just the brainchild of Jim Arvanitis who hopped on the crosstraining bandwagon back in the days of Bruce Lee. I don't know if he used BJJ specifically, but Pankration's ground work is incredibly similar to Japanese ne-waza. Sambo, aside from the leg locks and a few takedowns, is lifted directly from old school Judo, so their ground system is as much like Judo as it is wrestling.
Good points, Hengest. It's too bad I got here too late.>
Post: MA dude:
The extreme boxing tapes I believe can also be bought at Paladin-Press. Sambo has many arts as its basis and is quite similar to bjj probaly due to there similar orgins(old judo) Catch uses the guard quite a bit but it prefers to position. Its strategy is that you need control over your opponent, for example if you have the side mount but you have little contol of your opponent it is almost useless. This is turning out to be a great conversation :D lots of great opinions.>
Post: Hengest:
[quote=MA dude The extreme boxing tapes I believe can also be bought at Paladin-Press. Sambo has many arts as its basis and is quite similar to bjj probaly due to there similar orgins(old judo) Catch uses the guard quite a bit but it prefers to position. Its strategy is that you need control over your opponent, for example if you have the side mount but you have little contol of your opponent it is almost useless. This is turning out to be a great conversation :D lots of great opinions.[/quote
Thanks mate, I'll check out Paladin, although I can't at work. The security software blocks it! :roll: And I agree, this is turning into a good thread.
I would say, if catch uses the guard now, it's probably the influence of BJJ, as Bad Boy brought up in the beginning. Traditional catch, i.e. Lancashire style and catch-as-catch-can, hardly uses the guard at all.>
Post: MA dude:
I do not believe that it use the guard to the influence of bjj. Tony Cechine has never had a single day of training in bjj in his life. I have seen pictrues of catch wrestlers utilizing the guard before BJJ got big. If you check out Tony's material you can see the difference between the use of guard work and overall difference between bjj and wrestling. In catch it is conisdered that the person in the guard has the advantage and that the guard should only be used if you are caught on bottom.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=MA dude I do not believe that it use the guard to the influence of bjj. Tony Cechine has never had a single day of training in bjj in his life. I have seen pictrues of catch wrestlers utilizing the guard before BJJ got big. If you check out Tony's material you can see the difference between the use of guard work and overall difference between bjj and wrestling. In catch it is conisdered that the person in the guard has the advantage and that the guard should only be used if you are caught on bottom.[/quote
I don't know about Tony, but huge grapplers back in the day like Gene LeBell and Lou Thesz didn't like the guard. Using the legs to block the motion of the hips, which is what the guard does, is more helpful if you're stuck on the bottom but it is far from a position of advantage because you're still trapped under the mass of your opponent and your options for a submission are woefully reduced.>
Post: Ninja Kl0wn:
Hengest I wasn't joking. The Extreme Boxing tapes are on Ebay near constantly.>
Post: MA dude:
I went to www.extremeselfprotection.com and it says that its striking includes illegal puches found in boombattle. What is boombattle? I heard someone on another forum said it was a Old european mma contest.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
More importantly, what the hell is an illegal punch? You mean illegal in boxing rules? You can go to any two bit karate dojo and learn those types of punches.>
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