Post: bamboo:

That man certainly is smooth.
I loved the inside turning movements that turned into what looked like wrist controls keeping you off balance, very subtle.

Cheers for posting mr. Cohen.

-bamboo>

Post: setsu nin to:

dcohen

Thanks for the clip!>

Post: dcohen:

Thanks.

What can I say...you're right, Arthur really is quite good, and I think everyone here knows me well enough here to know that I don't say that about just anyone. No matter how I try to sucker stab or ripcut out of bad situations, no matter how I plan feints and trickery, it just doesn't friggin work. Frustrating, but it's fun to see myself getting closer and closer to stabbing the tricky bastard :lol: Plus, the ego has long since left that situation...I see martial artists both more experienced and better than me run into the same aweful realizations while trying to "get him" *gleeful snicker*.

The reason I post is to publicize both something I love, something that has saved my life a few times, and to publicize me getting metaphorically crushed (for arrogance destroying reasons).

Thanks for the feedback, though I figured there'd be a bit more with this many views...Guess I'll just post more clips as they come to me.

-Dave>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:

Thanks for the feedback, though I figured there'd be a bit more with this many views...Guess I'll just post more clips as they come to me

I think it may be a case of people not quite understanding what it is thats happening.
I have clips of myself being "walked around" the mat by Gleason sensei and upon showing them, I'm usually told that I'm faking/not trying or that they don't see whats happening. The fact is (much as I suspect in the above clip), being worked in a way where your body is "tricked" into thinking it can win, often looks extremely odd to what most people expect to see in a martial arts demonstration.

I know its systema, but it looks so much like aikido its frightening.

Cheers,

steve>

Post: zefff:

I didn't want to say anything because I didnt have any feelings about the clip worth mentioning when I saw it.

I hear what Dcohen and especially Bamboo is saying with that last post but if people dont have any respect for the success rate of any art that works with knives I dont see that clip educating people about its effectiveness because they will automatically think you are "faking/not trying" as Bamboo said.

The thing is, how do you get across to people that it can work? I dont know if Systema is or is not effective because Ive never had any experience of it firsthand but many MA's Ive come across seem to think knifework is pointless because they are resigned to the fact that 'you WILL get cut in a real situation' - They would just run away.

Why is it that with more and more thugs carrying weapons nowadays (Gov. figures proven fact, in England), more and more MA's reject knifework training?>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Zeff.....
Simple question, simple answers.
Most martial arts refuse to deal with the reality of knife defense because they all see the same solution: Fight your way out of it. And that solution has virtually no success rate.
The guy has a KNIFE for christ's sake! How the hell can you fight him and expect to come out the winner, or even alive?

That's why you don't fight him. Do you run? The reality is that sometimes you don't have time to. Sometimes shit just happens, you see a knife coming at you and you can either sit there and watch your internal organs get cut to bits, or you can do something about it.

If you do it right. If you've trained enough. If you've trained CORRECTLY. You won't fight the guy, yet he'll find himself unconscious and on the ground. Nothing magical there, just the simple concept of not resisting. If the guy never knows that there's resistance, he won't adjust his actions to meet that resistance.

So are you resisting? Yes.
But the key is that he does NOT KNOW that you are resisting. Either that or you've tricked him into not knowing.

It's really something you need to experience to understand.

Suddenly sharp objects coming at you look like fun.>

Post: dcohen:

As to the reality of what's happening...I'm trying to get him as sneakily and determinedly as I possibly can. I actually stabbed the training knife through his shirt once as he was getting out of the way...if that dull metal tip can make it through a heavy sweatshirt, you can bet your ass I would have gone through his skin and into him as if it were a real knife, had he not gotten out of the way.

I know what it takes to put a knife through someone's outer layers and into them, and in every demo we do, I am trying to kill him with real intent, power, and attacks which are as authentic as they get without a real knife. I trust my training partners to get out of the way, just as they trust themselves to - but if they don't, then both our loss, the knife is going where I'm putting it, whether they like it or not.

Don't have to say much more on "reality."

-Dave>

Post: zefff:

Creative fighter - I hear what you are saying. That was a good little post. I dont know if I put my point across properly in my post but I do love knifework and I think it is essential to put the time in. I was just trying to say that the bog-standard strike/grapple martial artist or whatever might not appreciate the sublety of the technique in the clip, so it might not get their attention.

DCohen - It seemed to me that the reality of the situations in the vid was techniques being demonstrated for others to see with you being a compliant attacker - Not you trying to kill the other man and him stopping you from doing that. You cant go mental if you are trying to show the finer points of technique, the onlookers would miss it all and if you have no regard for your partner his career will be a short one.

If you are the slim man I dont believe you were being as determind as you possibly could be. It wasnt a threatening situation and your body language and intent was not threatening, it was you guys displaying technique. Thats what I saw anyway.

You cant be using real intent and power because it would then become a duel as you both have training and are aware of each others methods. If it were real intent you would not be chilling out next to him, you would be busy getting what you want. It can never be "real" in the gym because you are trying to help each other develop at the end of the day. No training is "really real" so I say why waste time trying to defend that viewpoint?

I can appreciate the clip but dont say its real. No offence is intended at all with my reply, as I said before I can appreciate it but most people who have no weapon skills will not feel the clip.

respect.>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Well......
That clip wasn't freestyle knife work. It was Dave picking any position he wants with a knife to any of Arthur's finer vital points. From there Arthur improvises a way to get out of it and cause Dave some serious injury.

Given that, Dave's the one resisting. It's 2 totally different things, trying to resist a punch/kick and trying to resist falling on your ass. Dave is trying to resist falling on his ass. Notice how he constantly tries to change his weight around, tries to step forward/back? Hell he resists to his fullest capacities. If you're worried about why he isn't stabbing in the process, try this fun and helpful drill:

1) Put knife in right hand
2) Put right arm in a vice
3) Fall on your ass
4) Try to stab the nearest person

Isn't as easy as it seems, eh?

-Ilya>

Post: zefff:

I know it wasnt freestyle work. I mentioned Dave imposing his intent, not resisting another mans intent.

I dont need to be shown the light as I can appreciate what is happening as I see it from my point of view.

I was just trying to say that these types of vids dont convey or capture the essence of an art best for education (especially in this day and age) of those that have a narrow viewpoint, thats all.>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Then we've been in agreement all along.
I certainly learned something.

-Ilya>

Post: dcohen:

Hmm. I still disagree. I have known at least 2 guys who mugged people for a living that I am sure about, and both of them had this kind of intent. To prevent your opponent from feeling what you're going to do, you relax your movements and focus past them...then you pursue your goal with whatever force you have decided to use.

If I was trying to kill him, he'd have been sucker stabbed or shot in the head as I passed. My intent (as real as it can get for training, which is pretty damn real) is to get his money, to take him hostage. During that demonstration I was ready to cut his throat or gut him if my brain noticed him not complying immediately, raising his hands, or trying to push me away. If his movement doesn't work, he's getting it in the throat or belly. It's that simple.

As for "intent..." You're preaching to the choir on that one, I'm the last guy that's going to try to tell you that the training hall is just like the street. The point where we disagree is just that I have found the training to be much, much harder than what I've faced in terms of real-life empty hand, multiple attacker, and edged weapons situations.

Last point, quickly before I have to go: I didn't post this video for someone who didn't know anything about combative science/physics...they can worry about their own training. I posted it for the guys who I KNOW are on here who can get something out of it. And to have someone like you say what you said, so I can be having this conversation ;).

Ciao.

-Dave>

Post: zefff:

Respect to you guys, I would love to have a crack at some Systema to see and feel first hand. maybe one day.

I didnt understand what you were saying about the muggers DCohen, but Ive known many muggers and thugs, also Ive been mugged myself. The trend Ive seen was barked orders to the victim to stay completely still while they rifled through his pockets. Thats what Ive seen and thats what happened to me too.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"During that demonstration I was ready to cut his throat or gut him if my brain noticed him not complying immediately, raising his hands, or trying to push me away. If his movement doesn't work, he's getting it in the throat or belly."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what is it that causes you not to notice his responses, what makes it work?

cheers.>

Post: dcohen:

Aha! Sweet question, I'll attempt an answer when I'm home from school.

-Dave>

Post: dcohen:

[quote=zefff 
So what is it that causes you not to notice his responses, what makes it work?[/quote 

Okay, here goes. An attacker (me in this case) who has some sort of goal also has a way of recognizing that goal. How does he know he's "done?" He has your wallet, he has you scared, you're lying in a pool of your own arterial blood, whatever the goal is, the attacker has some pre-thought-out way of recognizing it. When you find yourself in a situation like this, you play with the other person's "programming" to really mess them up and extract yourself from the situation.

An attacker who's mugged a few people before will have a good idea of what to expect in his mind. Think along the lines of

"if he yells, I cut his throat/shoot him"

"if he tries to bat my hand away, I circle, come back, and shoot him"

"if he says "no" when I tell him to give me his wallet, I cut his throat/stab him/shoot him in the head"

"if he raises his hands after I tell him not to, I kill him"

But there are others. For example -
"if he doesn't understand the threat/see the weapon I'm using, intimidation isn't working. I'm going to show him the weapon, hold it into his face or tell him how I'm going to kill him to intimidate him better"

"if he tells me to fuck off, I respond back and kill him"

And the worst case:
"If he doesn't register the threat, I kill him anyway."

There's some basic thought patterns/triggers/whatever you want to call them. On to manipulating them. Someone relying on a Blitzkrieg-style overwhelming intimidation with a weapon can be coaxed into a disarm by pretending not to see his weapon. He shoves the gun into your face, you take it away. This is the psychological stuff, made practical.

Here's what is happening in a good portion of that clip: I am threatening with a knife held to the throat, torso, etc - wherever I'm comfortable and feel "in control." Arthur uses basic physics to change small things in the situation (my alignment, distance from my torso to the weapon, distance from the weapon to his throat, etc). Many are too small for me to feel and I don't register them as threats, but if I do notice and try to cut/stab, pull the trigger, I find that I am either in a really bad position, or Arthur just has to take one step and break my neck to kill me.

In addition, you'll see Arthur "sneak" his hand up to create a wedge between the knife and his throat (when I threaten from the front with a blade to his jugular). If I'm experienced and I ripcut out of it, and for some aweful reason he is still standing there, the worst I cut is his fingers. If he's not completely stupid and simply rotates his wrist as I ripcut out, I won't even get those.

This is basic basic BASIC stuff. It is really simple - 7 and 8 year olds were doing fine when I was hostaging them with like 80% intent and 100% speed after 10 minutes of demonstration/practice with a partner. If it looks complicated, you're attributing too much skill to something that's simple.

Anyways, a drill to get good at this quickly is to get a partner and a blade. Have him hold it wherever he wants, and SLOWLY move/realign/change things in the situation. Ask him to tell you when his "oh shit, he's doing something" alarms go off. You'll be amazed at the kind of freedom you have even in training - and in real life, you have MUCH more room to move around, because you're expected to be scared shitless and twitchy, which makes small adjustments even harder to identify, much less read.

Whenever you're watching video, just see it as physics. It's only rubber bands, incline planes, gears, and a few other simple machines. Seeing stuff in terms of arms, legs, stances, footwork, attacks, and defenses is just wayyy too complicated. Simple simple simple. Simple keeps me alive.

-Dave>

Post: Irish_Blood:

Nice post Dave. :D>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Awww, Dave, you talk about Systema in terms of machines and you don't even mention the SCREW?!?!

I'm disapointed, I LOVE the screw.

-Ilya>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=CreativeFighter Zeff.....
Simple question, simple answers.
Most martial arts refuse to deal with the reality of knife defense because they all see the same solution: Fight your way out of it. And that solution has virtually no success rate.
The guy has a KNIFE for christ's sake! How the hell can you fight him and expect to come out the winner, or even alive?[/quote 
In this situation, it's easy to come out the winner. You just have to have as much intent to kill as your opponent. Furthermore, I don't know about where you live, but not too many knife wounds are hard for the local hospital to fix up up here. If somebody brings out a knife, I'm not exactly shitting my pants.

Quote:

That's why you don't fight him. Do you run? The reality is that sometimes you don't have time to. Sometimes shit just happens, you see a knife coming at you and you can either sit there and watch your internal organs get cut to bits, or you can do something about it.

If you don't have time to do something, you haven't been training properly.

Quote:

If you do it right. If you've trained enough. If you've trained CORRECTLY. You won't fight the guy, yet he'll find himself unconscious and on the ground. Nothing magical there, just the simple concept of not resisting. If the guy never knows that there's resistance, he won't adjust his actions to meet that resistance.

So, you expect to knock a guy out without him noticing that you're throeing punches or entering for a throw? Either you're a super ninja, the likes of which have never been seen before, or you're full of it.

Quote:

Suddenly sharp objects coming at you look like fun.

Given my teen years, I don't think I see them any other way. :lol:>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Who said anything about "throwing punches/entering a for a throw"?>

Post: CreativeFighter:

OK, I'm in study hall...might as well write a reply...

You're holding a knife. The most sensitive area is going to be your hand. Any movement towards or against it will trigger the above mentioned "oh shit" alarm. The less sensitive area is your forearm. Take it to the extreme, and you've got the leg. If you're holding a knife to a hostage and something brushes against your leg, that will not be seen by you as a threat to your dominance over the situation.

I'm trying to relay this as I see it, as I automatically think of it. It's my little schema of the situation, others' may be different.

Now, imagine you stabbing and the arm being diverted. No pressure being put on the arm but it still not hitting home on your target. There are a good 2-3 seconds before you realize that you failed, before you retract your arm and try again.

In that time, the person on the defensive has 3 seconds where they are not being stabbed, cut at, or slashed. 3 seconds where they can cause havoc on their opponent's structure and body.

I'm probably overcomplicating it, but it's a very simple principal. If the person doesn't know that they've failed, then they won't retract their arm and come in for stab #2.

-Ilya>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Well, let me reply to both of your posts.
"Who said anything about punches or throws"

How else do you expect to knock somebody down? With your Jedi mind force? To do what you claimed to be able to do, you have to physically attack your opponent and as I stated before, it will be noticed.

As for "There are a good 2-3 seconds before you realize that you failed," I think you're overestimating the amount of time it takes to fight. Two to three seconds is a LONG time in terms of neurological processing, and if somebody doesn't know they missed with a stabbed in less than a few milliseconds, I'd assume something akin to autism in that somebody. As for being able to reingage after a miss, there will be an opening, due to human physiological mechanics, but it is small and smaller still when you're dealing with an experienced fighter.

You don't have the ability to make somebody miss and cause havoc, you only have the ability to make somebody miss and hope it was enough to get your attack through.>

Post: CreativeFighter:

I don't have the time nor the energy to discuss this further. Not trying to be a dick.

We train differently. Not everything in a fight will be classified as a punch or a grapple.

-Ilya>

Post: Irish_Blood:

Des,

I can see all your points, and I thought the same. I admit, on paper (or internet in this case) it all looks like it could be bullshit. Theres no denying that it may look silly online when it's explained briefly. However, I beg you to take a class or go to a seminar if there is one in the area. If you take the class and still think it's bullshit, then hell - you're still entitled to your opinion. :)
At the very least I hope the experience of a seminar or class would help your understanding of our theory and practice of self defense and general combat.

Successful defense from an enemie's blade attack dosn't have to be to damage the opponent heavily or even bring them to the ground. Simply getting him out of the way for a quick escape or making sure the
business end of the blade is away from your body - thats all thats really needed. After all, self defense is about survival - not battling.
Talking about people's neurological processes, reaction times, and reingagement is largely trival because of the subject matter can be so general. Actually, a lot of this is very trivial. :roll:>

Post: Nihang:

I cant view the video thats linked, but I have seen the Systema videos on the website.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/may.wmv

I myself practise a weapons based combat art and the moves performed there are definitly effective, I agree that allot of people are very scared of going against knives because the chances of being cut at extremely high no matter how trained you are, its just a matter of damage limitation if you are ever forced into having to go against a knife. Its always best to train for such situations then just rely on running away, you'll never know when you are forced into defending yourself.>

Post: dscott:

I have to ask what the point of the "Mosh pit" was in the end of that video clip.>